Cold Open On Info Dumping

SPEAKER_00 0:00

And the reason we do this in the first draft is because as the writer, we're figuring out the story. We're telling ourselves the story. And a lot of times that doesn't happen according to the outline, like discoveries happen on the page, or we'll suddenly be like, oh, there's this backstory that like would be perfect here. So we just kind of info dump the whole backstory right when we figure it out. And that's totally fine for the first draft. That's the whole point, is to get those ideas out. But then in the second draft, you actually have to like weave that information in in a more compelling way and avoid all of the info dumping.

Meet The Hosts And The Experiment

SPEAKER_01 0:34

Welcome to the Fiction Writing Made Easy Podcast. My name is Savannah Gilbo, and I'm here to help you write a story that works. I want to prove to you that writing a novel doesn't have to be overwhelming. So each week I'll bring you a brand new episode with simple, actionable, and step-by-step strategies that you can implement in your writing right away. So whether you're brand new to writing or more of a seasoned author looking to improve your craft, this podcast is for you. So pick up a pen and let's get started. In today's episode, you are in for a real treat because Jessica Brody and I are comparing notes on the most common mistakes we see writers make in their first drafts or when approaching their first drafts. And in case you don't know Jessica, although I'm sure you do, she is the author of over 20 novels. She wrote one of my all-time favorite writing guides, which is Save the Cat Writes a Novel, as well as her most recent book called Page One to Done, which is all about helping writers get to the end of a first draft. And she is also the founder of the Writing Mastery Academy that has all kinds of courses and resources for authors. Now, the other week I sent Jessica a message and I said, How would you like to do a fun experiment with me on the podcast? Because I have this idea where we each come up with a list of the top five mistakes we see writers make in their first drafts. And then essentially we get together and compare notes while we're recording, but neither of us is gonna know what is on the other's list. Like, does that sound fun? Is that something you'd want to do with me? And immediately Jessica was like, yep, let's do it. So that is exactly what you're gonna hear us chat about today. And I will be honest, I really thought we were gonna show up with the same list of mistakes. I was actually a little bit worried about it. Like, what if our lists are exactly the same? Is that gonna make for a really boring episode? But spoiler alert, our lists were a lot less identical than I expected, which is actually kind of fun. So in this episode, you're gonna hear us compare our lists in real time, and we're going to talk through everything from mindset and process mistakes that can make drafting harder than it needs to be, to craft mistakes that tend to show up on the page and may need your attention once you get into revision. So I won't make you wait any longer. Let's get right into the conversation.

Stop Expecting A Great First Draft

SPEAKER_00 2:48

I started out thinking about mistakes that authors make in the way they approach the first draft. I do have some that like what's wrong with my first draft that I might need to fix later. But page one to done, my book, is really focused on how do authors approach the first draft? What is their mindsets that are sort of getting them in trouble? And the first big one, which is sort of the core of my mindset phase of fast drafting method, is basically just expecting the first draft to be any good. And like so many authors like go in expecting like artwork to come out, and the first draft is so often not that. And so I picked that one first. Is that one on your list?

SPEAKER_01 3:26

It is on my list, and it's so funny because we just talked about this in a training I did yesterday, where it's like we're all of us are readers or most of us are readers, right? So we experience those books, like page one flips to page two, and page two flips to page three, and all the elements are woven together, you know, and then we sit down and we'd expect to write those drafts like that. Like you're saying, we expect it to be good, or you know, we want it to be perfect, but it never will be. And so we expect all that stuff to happen at once, and it's just not going to happen.

SPEAKER_00 3:55

Yeah. Like I like when you said page one flows to page two to page three, and that everything is sensical. And yes, for us to expect that that ideas come out of our brain that way is so it's just not the reality. Like ideas come out in these, like, you know, fits and bursts, and like, oh, I have an idea for this this thing that's probably not gonna happen for 300 pages, and I gotta write it down. And that's how ideas come out.

SPEAKER_01 4:19

Yeah, I totally agree with that. And something that I talk about a lot is this idea that stories are built in layers. And I feel like this is one of those things that as a new writer or someone who's never finished a book before, it's really hard to understand what that means, what it looks like, what it feels like, right? Um, and this is part of why we all get in this trap of thinking that we're gonna produce our final draft on our first try, or at least a very good, solid, cohesive feeling draft on our first try, but that is just not the reality. It's like you have to build this thing layer by layer by layer. And I know this is totally unrelated, but I always think about like building a house, right? You don't build one room and then like paint it and furnish it and decorate it all at the same time. You have to build the foundation, you have to then like frame the walls and you know, however a house gets built. And then once it's built, you furnish or paint the insides, furnish the insides, and then decorate, and then like eventually live in it, right? So I know it's um kind of out in left field to use house building versus novel writing, but I do think sometimes it's uh a pretty good analogy or a pretty good visual way of thinking about the process.

SPEAKER_00 5:30

I just wrote my second murder mystery. My first one is about to come out, and I wrote my second one. The joke about second books is that you always like you forget how you how to write. You're like, how do I write a book? And this is technically like my 20-second novel. And I was like, I don't remember how to write a book. Um, but this book came out in just so many different orders. Like, I mean, the first draft was such a mess, but by now I just kind of know that that's the process, and I just have to capture it all. And now I'm in the process of making sense of it in the second draft.

SPEAKER_01 6:01

Yeah, and that's actually interesting, a murder mystery because you have to layer in the clues and the red herrings and all that. And a lot of people expect like I can't start writing until I have all that figured out. And that's just never the case either. So it's like that's the kind of stuff you can really layer. Or even if you're writing fantasy and sci-fi, the world-building, you know, things that you're doling out can be done layer by layer. Yeah, exactly. All right, I want to hear one of yours. Yeah, I was gonna say, I'm not surprised that we had this one as like both of us on our list. Um, it was number two on mine, but that's okay. So I'm gonna actually go to like the flip side of this and I'm gonna pick a craft mistake to kind of balance out process

Give Your Story A Real Antagonist

SPEAKER_01 6:41

first. And one of the craft mistakes I have on my list is just not fleshing out your antagonist enough or paying attention to your antagonist. And so what we tend to do is we focus a lot on like developing our protagonist, right? Because that's what a lot of the advice is about. And then the antagonist is either like totally missing an afterthought that we kind of develop to create conflict, or um like a cardboard villain that's twirling their mustache, you know. Did you have that on your list? I'm curious.

SPEAKER_00 7:11

I don't have that one on my list, which is I I I feel like that's a big um, that's a big one. And then my follow-up question to you, because it's something I get all the a question I get all the time, and I would love to hear how you answer it, is what if you're writing a book without an antagonist, like a classic antagonist?

SPEAKER_01 7:26

Yes. So we it's so funny because this is such a common question. And if you're writing a book where like society or like the patriarchy or whatever it is is your antagonist, what I like to say is who in your plot represents that kind of energy or those kind of blocks or that kind of conflict. Because if you think about it in like you say, like in lessons in chemistry, for example, you could say the patriarchy is the antagonist. But how does that really get in your character's way scene by scene, other than just kind of existing in the setting, right? Same with like if you were to do something like a hurricane comes and blows down the town, okay, but what else is going to get in the way? So I always like to personify like what the vibes or the intentions or the type of conflict that thing is, and then put it in people.

SPEAKER_00 8:12

Is that how you typically tackle it, too? That's almost exactly how I usually answer that question. It's basically like the patriarchy or whatever is like high school dynamics, you know, if you're writing a young adult fiction that takes place in a modern high school, like the high school dynamics cannot be a conflict. Like you have to actually put it into a person for it to become conflict. So it's like, yeah, how does that manifest through a person? And what does it look like when someone succumbs to that sort of evil or um whatever that force is? What does that look like in a person? And then that becomes an antagonist, even if that's not really, even if you're not approaching it as a classic antagonist.

SPEAKER_01 8:53

Yes. And sometimes the person that manifests that isn't necessarily evil or bad or anything. It's just like they represent the qualities that are putting pressure on the protagonist and getting in the way and things like that. So yeah, so that was one of my mistakes. And if you are listening and you're like, this might be my mistake, this is why people get stuck in the middle, because they don't have enough conflict to kind of sustain the middle. Um, it's what happens when you're like, I don't really know how to show my character growing and changing because there's no conflict because there's no antagonist. So if you're um thinking this might be your mistake, then just literally pause and go develop that antagonist. Yeah. What's next on your

Concrete Goals To Avoid The Middle

SPEAKER_01 9:31

list?

SPEAKER_00 9:31

Okay, because you said getting stuck in the middle, I do have one um that I wrote down that I think is one of the reasons that people get stuck in the middle, but also not enough conflict that you said. But one that I see all the time, and it's also one that I just catch myself doing all the time, even though I know that I'm supposed to do this for some reason. I just don't do it. Um, is the first draft often has a lack of really concrete goals. So, like, for instance, when I was writing this murder mystery, I was like, I know my concrete goal. It's to solve the murder. Well, that's kind of a it's a concrete goal, but it's too big. So, like, what does that look like? Oh, okay, well, actually there's a missing, you know, object that they have to find that they think is a clue. Okay, now I have a concrete goal. And I think what happens is when we write our like the beginning of our second act, which in save the cat terms we call the break into two. So the character is like leaving a new world or starting a new way of doing things, like taking on a case or taking on a quest or starting a new high school or whatever it is. And when we don't give them a goal at that moment, then that whole next section just kind of flounders around and you don't quite know what you're writing because you don't know what you're writing toward. So figuring out like what is the character's goal at the break into act two is so like solves so many problems. And I think a lot of first drafts start meandering, particularly as you get closer to the midpoint, because we don't have that like actionable concrete direction for it.

SPEAKER_01 10:59

Yeah. And this is something I annoy all my students about because they'll say something like, Well, the goal is to solve the mystery, obviously. And I'm like, Yeah, but by doing what? Right. You know, and I'm always like, by doing what? So um, I'm kind of smiling because I do annoy people with that all the time. But I had actually, it's so funny, I had kind of an adjacent um mistake to yours, which is the character lacks agency, which is like kind of a result of not having a goal. If you don't have a goal, then of course, like, what are you really gonna be doing about anything? Probably nothing because you don't have a goal. So um, yeah, like if a classic sign of running out of steam in the middle is when you're just like, what should my protagonist do next? And you just don't know, right? Probably because they don't have a goal, probably because there's no antagonist or the antagonist isn't creating enough conflict. And then even if they do have a goal and there is an antagonist, they might not have enough agency to do anything about this stuff. So kind of like all middle themed right there.

SPEAKER_00 11:54

Yeah, I had some more middle stuff too in there, just muddled midpoint is the first draft problem, but I think we've sort of solved those with antagonists, more conflict, better goals. Yes. Muddled middle.

SPEAKER_01 12:07

Yes. Okay, so I'm gonna take us back to like a process or a mindset type of mistake.

Start Before You Feel Ready

SPEAKER_01 12:12

One of them I had on my list is waiting to feel quote unquote ready before you start outlining your drafting. And this used to be me. I this is like the thing I relate to the most is you just think if you wait longer, research more, brainstorm more, think about it more, then someday you'll like wake up and magically feel ready. And that just doesn't ever happen. Like you'll never ever feel ready. And in my course, we talk about this like the idea of having courage before you have confidence. So it's like the courage to start writing and kind of like you were just saying with book two, it's like you just have to get in there and then you'll start building that confidence muscle and remember, like, okay, I either know what I'm doing or okay, I can figure this out.

SPEAKER_00 12:53

Yeah. And then I mean, that really goes along with the not expecting the first draft to be good because I think what holds us back, and I can't believe I didn't put and did not put this on my list because it is a big one that I I myself fall into all the time. I I'm like a huge plotter. So I just think if I get the outline like absolutely perfect, I will make no mistakes and everything will go smoothly. And 22 books later, I still haven't learned that lesson that it never goes smoothly and you will never get the outline perfect. Um, and yet I still catch myself trying. But I think when we we let go of that perfection and those expectations of the first draft being in anywhere near what we read on, you know, what the books on our shelf look like, then that releases a lot of that pressure that is what is keeping us from starting. Yeah. So when we say, okay, the first draft just has to be like written, it doesn't actually have to make sense, then suddenly, okay, then it doesn't really matter if my outline is complete. It doesn't really matter if I don't know where to start. Um, I can just start anywhere and fit like my whole motto is just write it and fix it later. Just keep moving forward, fix it later. Um, but yeah, I catch myself doing that all the time. It's like either you want to world build until the world is perfect, or you want to plot until the plot is perfect, or you want to find the perfect first scene to start with. And chances are you're whatever first scene you write, if it takes you two weeks to figure that out, or two months, or two days, or two hours, it's gonna change.

unknown 14:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:17

Yeah, especially that first scene. But um, it's funny because so sometimes when I talk about this idea of like just getting the draft down, or when people hear it, they think, okay, well, that means like word vomiting and just this terrible mess. And I always like to kind of back up and be like, that's not usually what we mean. That can be what you do if that's part of your process, but you can still have a well-informed and intentional draft that you just get out in a kind of fast and somewhat messy way because that's the only way you're ever going to find that information that you want. Yeah. You know, exactly. I also see this come up when um people are like, they of course want to research the craft of writing and learn about the craft of writing forever, right? Um, because there's always something to learn. But I feel like sometimes we do this as well, where we're like, if I can just figure out how like Save the Cat works with Hero's Journey, works with this other plotting method. If I can just figure out how they all work together or overlap, then I'll feel ready to write my book. And like that usually doesn't happen too. Everyone has their own method and they're all trying to get you to the same spot. So I feel like if someone's listening and they do this, just rest easy. They're all trying to get you to the same spot. Just pick one.

SPEAKER_00 15:24

Yeah. I would say pick the one that works for your brain. You know, like you'll know because you read it and it'll just click. Something will make sense to you. And it doesn't matter if you've read. I mean, I still to this day, I have not read any of the other plotting methods. Oh my gosh, how funny. I wrote I wrote Save the Cat Rights a novel. It all it clicked with me from the beginning, and I just felt no other reason to confuse myself.

SPEAKER_01 15:45

Oh my gosh, that's so good.

unknown 15:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:49

I mean, I sort of know them from the case.

SPEAKER_00 15:51

I'm the opposite.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

I'm like, let me compare them all and figure out why this one says the catalyst is at 12% and that one says 10%, you know? That's so good for your brain. I love that. That's funny. Okay, what is your next mistake?

Quit Revising While Drafting

SPEAKER_00 16:04

Okay, I'll stick with the process um theme for a minute. And that is this is a big one in my book, page one to done, which is basically trying to write and revise at the same time. Um, I see so many writers myself used, I used to do this, is we write something, we're like, no, that's not good. We go back and we try to rewrite it. Or we get to page 50 and we get an idea for page one, and we have to start over and like start from the beginning. And it's an incredibly slow and frustrating process. It ends up in you end up in revision spirals. Um, and essentially it's because when we try to revise something we haven't finished, we are revising in the dark. We don't know what we're actually editing. We're just sort of trying to stumble along and make something perfect when we don't even know what we've said yet. We don't even know what we're trying to say yet. And until we finish, it's really hard to do that. And it ends up very in this like frustrating process. So what I talk about in page one to done is really about like how to keep yourself from trying to write and revise at the same time. And I've I've been doing a lot of like research on this whole phenomenon of like, why do we want to go back to page one so many times? And I think it's because like it feels like progress, but it's not real progress. If like we get a new idea and we're like, yes, I'm gonna go back and I'm gonna implement this, but it's almost like fake progress because we're never moving forward that way. Um, and so it's it's very tempting to do, but it ends up, I think, just being one of the reasons so many people quit is because the further you get along in the book, the longer that page one rewrite takes and you just start to get frustrated and overwhelmed.

SPEAKER_01 17:41

So yeah, especially to your point, if you keep kind of revising the same thing, like if you're revising how a side character shows up and then you go back because you had an idea, and then you go forward and then you go back because you had a different idea, like of course that's frustrating. Um, I think it also goes to what we said earlier of like, if we can just do it right the first time, then we won't have edits and we have the perfectionism thing hanging over our head, right? Um, but in reality, there's always gonna be edits, and you just don't know what you don't know until you get to the end. So okay, so let's see. I'm gonna go back to a craft

Plot And Character Must Connect

SPEAKER_01 18:15

one. And um, the next one I have is focusing on plot without tying it to care character and vice versa. So this one I see a lot when writers will use like some kind of plotting method, and they'll just like so they haven't read Save the Cat Rights Novel, right? They've just like Googled Save the Cat and they get this beat sheet or the hero's journey plot points or whatever, and they haven't done the pre-work of figuring out like what your character needs and wants and all that and who your antagonist is. So they will end up kind of trying to fill in like what's a surprising event that could happen. And it's like, well, literally anything could happen, but in the context of your character and your story, what would make the most sense? Sometimes, and I kind of want to say both sides of this. Sometimes part of a writer's process is really focusing on just the external to get that out, and then you can come back and layer in the internal that you kind of had in your mind as you wrote your first draft, but it didn't show up on the page. Um, but was this on your list? I'm curious. Not oh my god, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:14

I mean, every one you've said, I'm like, oh yeah, that one. I can't believe I missed that one.

SPEAKER_01 19:18

How fun.

SPEAKER_00 19:19

Um, that one's not on my list, but um one I do I do see a lot. And I I want to caveat this one because, like I said, writing and revising gets you into a lot of trouble. So these craft ones that we've been discussing, I feel like it's not, it doesn't mean you should stop writing your first draft right now if you recognize this and go and start revising it, because that's the process, you know, mistake. Um, so all of the things I've written down as sort of quote, mistakes in the first draft or problems of the first draft are things that, yes, I see these problems in my own drafts, in other writers' drafts, but that doesn't mean you need to fix them in the first draft. They are definitely things to fix in the second draft. Um, so I want to caveat that one because this next one I have is like, I think everyone's guilty

Info Dumping As Scaffolding

SPEAKER_00 20:03

of this in their first draft. Um, and that is just exposition overload or info dumping is the really like term everybody knows. And the reason we do this in the first draft is because the first draft, as we've been saying, is is basically us as the writer, we're figuring out the story. We're telling ourselves the story. And a lot of times that doesn't happen according to the outline, like discoveries happen on the page, or we'll suddenly be like, oh, there's this backstory that like would be perfect here. And so we just kind of info dump the whole backstory right when we figure it out, or some world-building element that I want to explain why, you know, this dragon has this color and I'm gonna info dump that right here. And that's totally fine for the first draft. That's the whole point, is to get those ideas out. But then in the second draft, you actually have to like make that, you have to weave that information in in a more compelling way um and avoid all of the info dumping. I also call info dumping, I like to call it scaffolding because it feels like you're kind of temporarily holding the story up with all this information. And then you kind of have to pick and choose what is actually load-bearing and what can either be cut or moved somewhere else.

SPEAKER_01 21:14

Yes. I didn't have this one on my list, although I do see it all the time. Um, but it also kind of relates to the one I just said, where like a lot of first drafts will have more of that scaffolding and that info dumping. And then they say, Well, I'm already at 105,000 words. I can't possibly add in more interiority or whatever it is. That helps kind of tie the plot and the character together more. And that's exactly what you're just saying is like put you need to pull out and be selective with that info dumping to make room for the other stuff. And that is what you do in editing. You don't do it during your first draft. But right, right.

SPEAKER_00 21:46

Because you I mean, in the first draft, you don't know what you don't what you need and what you don't need. Exactly. And when when I wrote my very first um, like hard not hard sci-fi, but like world building sci-fi, it was very much like I mean, it was just full of info. dumps because I'm like, oh, I have to explain how this whole city is set up in this one scene, the very first scene where you see the city, I have to explain the whole city. And then it was like, actually, I only have to explain as much as I need to get this scene done. And then I can put other stuff elsewhere. But you kind of have to just write through that.

SPEAKER_01 22:15

And I feel like people can see that more easily in their own drafts once they've gotten to the end because then it literally is all out and they'll come back and they'll read their own work and be like, that's a lot of information I just put here in chapter three, you know? So it's just easier too once you get to the end. But I think that was five each, was it?

SPEAKER_00 22:32

I was it I'm trying to see if I have any other I had one extra maybe I'll do my bonus one then.

SPEAKER_01 22:36

Okay.

Scenes First Chapters Later

SPEAKER_01 22:37

Let's do your bonus but I just did one. So I think it's your turn. Okay. So I'm going to give my bonus one, which is I don't want to call this one a mistake, but it's one of those things where I'm like, I just wish I could kind of impart why I'm suggesting this on people. And it's like focusing so hard on chapters versus writing scenes. Because yeah, because what happens and like it's not bad to focus on chapters, of course, you will do that at some point, but I see writers get so hung up on like, is this the best, most exciting chapter opening and is this the best cliffhanger? And like, did I do it right? How many point of views can I put in one chapter? And it's like, okay, those are decisions we need to make, but first let's make sure those scenes within or behind the chapters work and they're well structured. Not only because that's how you write a good book, but that's it makes it easier to split the chapters later as well. So I guess like the what to do instead, learn how to write a really great scene.

SPEAKER_00 23:28

Yeah, scene crafting is a great skill. In in my writing mastery academy we have a fantastic scene crafting course that was taught by Jordan Rosenfeld who wrote the book called Make a Scene. Love it. And I learned so much from her and just like what every scene needs and you know we need the beginning, middle and end. It's like every scene needs its own little story and it needs its own little structure and it needs conflict and goals. And I think I see that a lot too that scenes aren't really constructed in first drafts. But again that's kind of something yeah you can absolutely fix later um when you start to revise and try to make everything make sense. But I get this question a lot like how many chapters should a book be or how many scenes per chapter and it's like chapters are so arbitrary. They are like they are sort of your decision about how you want to paste the novel and how chapters are like your cue to the reader. This is where I would like this is where you can take a break if you dare um if if I haven't riveted you to the next chapter. But scenes are the actual building blocks of story. And so if we can build our scenes first I think then it becomes easier to decide where do the chapter breaks go.

SPEAKER_01 24:35

Yeah. And if you can learn how to write a great scene then you are so well equipped already to write a great story. And to your point, chapters are so squishy that you will drive yourself nuts trying to study like what is the appropriate chapter length because it's literally all over the place. But that was my bonus

Side Characters That Serve The Story

SPEAKER_01 24:52

mistake.

SPEAKER_00 24:52

What's your bonus? I love it. My bonus mistake is actually kind of connected to some of yours which is that the side characters don't connect to the main story.

SPEAKER_01 25:02

It's a good one too.

SPEAKER_00 25:03

I see this a lot it's like we get I get very swept away in my side plots and my side characters like and I know there's it's like a side character obsession disorder or something. I know other writers who have this too we get very excited about our side characters. And we like they end up kind of stealing the show and sometimes that's a a clue like maybe you have to rewrite it to be their story. I don't know. But a lot of times it's just like they go a little overboard and we have to rein them back in again in revision not in the first draft. But it's yeah if if the side character doesn't connect to the main character or the main character story in some way like you know helping the plot, hindering the plot, you know, teaching the main character the theme or being the opposite of what the character needs to learn or anything like that. Then that character's always going to feel like this appendage that doesn't attach. Like it's always going to feel like this extra thing and readers start to sense that and they start to skim those parts because they just get this sense that like this isn't really connecting to the story. It just feels like this extra like vignette or something. So I see that a lot and I it's it's not like the big big one but I put it on the list just because it's one that I do see pretty often and is very important.

SPEAKER_01 26:17

That's why it's a bonus mistake, right? But I see this too where it happens exactly like you said or like all of a sudden we're those side characters are getting point of view chapters and then you're at like 3000 words because they've essentially become the other protagonist, you know? Which again like is totally fine because that could change the way you're writing your story and it could just inform your first draft. But yeah eventually we want to rein those guys in. But okay well that was pretty

Links Resources And Next Steps

SPEAKER_01 26:43

fun. I actually I came into this thinking we were going to have way more overlap than we did, um, which is like a fun surprise. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 26:51

You know, I thought the same thing when I was writing mine I was like oh she's gonna have this one she's gonna have this one and I almost trying to press myself to find like more unique ones and maybe that's why like yeah but at the same time I feel like there was a lot of overlap just thematically between ours even if they weren't specific. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:09

Yeah so pretty fun. Okay well maybe we'll do this again if if listeners like this episode we'll maybe do it again with like character mistakes or like I don't know you guys can have ideas. But Jessica where would you want to send people to go learn more about all the things you talked about today.

SPEAKER_00 27:24

Yeah um jessicabrody.com is my main hub um where you can find out about my novels, my how to writing guides and then I also have writingmastery com which is where you can go to take any of my courses.

SPEAKER_01 27:36

All right so I hope you enjoyed this episode I had so much fun talking this through with Jessica so a big thank you to her for being willing to do this with me. I will put all the links to where you can find Jessica Brody in the show notes as well as where you can learn more about her books and the Writing Mastery Academy. All of that will be in the show notes waiting for you. And as always if you want my help turning your ideas into a finished draft and beyond I'd like to invite you to check out my Notes to Novel course that I will also link in the show notes. Notes to Novel is my signature program where I walk writers through everything they need to develop their ideas into a full-length novel. So character creation, genre selection, uncovering your theme, outlining your story scene by scene, and so much more, all so that you can approach your first draft with clarity and confidence. Again, the link to learn more will be in the show notes if you would like to come join me inside notes to novel. Now coming up in the next episode I'm going to share my top tips for writing cozy stories that work. So whether you're writing cozy fantasy, cozy mystery, cozy romance or any other kind of cozy story, I'm gonna share what makes a cozy story work, how to write one and the most common mistakes to look out for. All of that and more is coming up in the next episode. Alright so that's all I have for you today. As always thank you so much for tuning in and for all of your support. I hope your writing is going well and I will talk to you next time.