Why Fast Drafting Can Work

SPEAKER_01 0:00

I always viewed outline within that same sort of rigid structure and absolutely followed the philosophy that an outline was a death of creativity, which actually is not the case now. I have been thoroughly convinced otherwise. I still don't use um a very strict outline, but I like the idea that you had mentioned before that it is a living document, that it is meant to change as you go along, but it still provides structure. And structure is very important to teach you how to work smart, not just hard.

SPEAKER_00 0:35

Welcome to the Fiction Writing Made Easy Podcast. My name is Savannah Gilbo, and I'm here to help you write a story that works. I want to prove to you that writing a novel doesn't have to be overwhelming. So each week I'll bring you a brand new episode with simple, actionable, and step-by-step strategies that you can implement in your writing right away. Whether you're brand new to writing or more of a seasoned author looking to improve your craft, this podcast is for you. So pick up a pen and let's get started. In today's episode, I'm taking you behind the scenes into Grace Draven's writing journey to show you that writing fast and writing well aren't opposites. Now, Grace is already a very successful writer. At the time of recording this, she is a five-time USA Today bestseller, and she's written 20 plus books across novels, novellas, and short stories. You might even remember that I talked about one of Grace's books in an episode where I was comparing romantic fantasy to fantasy romance. I will put that link in the show notes if you are interested in checking out that episode. So based on all of that, you might be wondering, what was Grace doing in your Notes to Novel course? Isn't that for people trying to write their first drafts? Well, here's the thing. Grace knows how to write a great book. She has put in the reps and the proof is in her back catalog and all the glowing reviews she has. But what Grace didn't have and what she wanted from Notes to Novel is a faster, more efficient way to write a book without sacrificing quality. Now, you might remember I did an episode a few months ago on the truth about writing faster and how a lot of writers think that writing fast means writing poorly. In that episode, it's episode number 224 that I will link to in the show notes. I talk about how that is not true. And Grace's story that you'll hear today is proof of that. In fact, she was able to write 62,000 words in just 21 days to complete her first draft. And when she handed that draft over to her editor, her editor said, Grace, this is the most solid first draft you've ever given me. This is a really solid book. And I mean, come on, that is the dream to hear, right? So in this episode, you're going to hear Grace talk about what made that kind of speed and quality possible. She's also going to share what finally made her embrace the idea of having a flexible outline that worked for her and her process after being a discovery writer for her entire career. And she's going to share two of the biggest things that made a difference in the quality of her finished draft. So without further ado, let's dive right into my conversation with Grace Draven.

From Fan Fiction To Bestsellers

SPEAKER_00 3:03

Hi, Grace. Welcome to the Fiction Writing Made Easy podcast. I'm so excited to have you here today.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

Hi, Savannah. I am thrilled to be here.

SPEAKER_00 3:10

Can you give listeners a quick overview of who you are, what you do, what you write, and things like that?

SPEAKER_01 3:15

Sure. My name is Grace Draven, and I write fantasy romance. And I was doing that before the very popular portmanteau of romanticy came aboard.

SPEAKER_00 3:26

So I've been at this for a little while. I was gonna say you've been doing it for 20 plus years, right?

SPEAKER_01 3:31

I have. I actually and I think you'll like this. I started writing as a hobby, and that was back in 20, oh gosh, 2003. So now that I think about it. Wow. 2003, and I was writing Harry Potter fan fiction. Oh my gosh, I love it.

SPEAKER_00 3:46

Well, okay, so you were writing Harry Potter fan fiction, and then you kind of jumped on board with the fantasy romance well before it was even really a thing. And you've since written several novels. You've written several short stories, novellas. You've been on the USA Today bestseller list five plus times, right? Yep.

SPEAKER_01 4:04

Yep, five times.

SPEAKER_00 4:05

Yeah. So that is amazing. You obviously know how to write a book, how to get it to the finish line and all that. And you've also mentioned, like, there has been some parts of your process where you're like, I know this could get better, right?

SPEAKER_01 4:17

Oh, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 4:18

So talk to me a little bit about that. Like, obviously, again, you've been very successful, but what were the speed bumps? Because I sometimes think that authors look at someone like you and they're like, oh my gosh, you just must sit down at your desk and have the best time writing your books and it's all easy.

SPEAKER_01 4:32

Oh boy, don't no. Don't I wish it was? That would be marvelous if that's the case. Um, you know, it's interesting in that I've always been a pantser. I never would follow an outline or anything. I would just sit down and start writing. I'd start out with an idea. That didn't mean that I didn't have like some kind of vague structure in my head. And I knew the ending, I knew the beginning. It was just all the stuff in the middle that I had to work my way through. Or, you know, I think then one of the more popular terms for a panther now is the discovery writers.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:05

But that does come with while it's organic and some of my best ideas come in the 11th hour. I still say that, you know, along with those pros are the cons of writing yourself into a corner, getting stuck, and rewriting. And for me, um, I'm okay with rewriting. And the reason I say that is because I've had to do a massive amount of it, which is painful and it makes me a slow writer. So those were some of the obstacles. And actually, one of the reasons why I definitely jumped on board with notes to novel and started listening to your podcast regularly because that actually got me past that. And I'm a much faster writer now without uh you know sacrificing quality or anything like that. It's it's been a lifesaver for me so far. But yeah, I would probably I would probably say that as far as obstacles went, a slow writer and having to do rewrites. I had one book where my editor came back to me with her uh basically edit sheets, and you know, it's that big you know summary report that they give you, and then you've also got all the track changes in the manuscript. And she had one item on there that said, I think this needs to change for this character's motivation. Well, I was in agreement. I said, Okay, yeah, then I started making changes, but it was one of these ones where once I started making the change there, it worked like House of Cards, dominoes, everything, the big scenes, everything started to fall apart. And so the original 132,000 words I turned into her, I tossed out everything except 9,000 words and started over.

SPEAKER_00 6:44

Oh my gosh. Now, to some listeners, that sounds like they're absolute nightmare. Oh, yeah. And I had six weeks to write it. So oh my gosh. Yeah. So speed is important to you and also quality, right? That makes sense. Sure. A lot of writers, even if they're not like up against a deadline or on contract or whatever, they also want the same things. They want to write a good draft and they want to write one, you know, as efficiently as they possibly can. And there's a lot of stuff out in the market that kind of sells writers on, you know, write your book in 30 days or 90 days or whatever. Um, and some deliver on that promise, some don't, but that's a whole different conversation. Um, so you you said you had the experience of like, I know that this is, you know, taking me a while, and that's part of it is just my process, but I also know I could get faster and maybe more efficient at this, which is funny because there's kind of two things that brought us into each other's world. One of them was me mentioning you on my podcast and going through your book a little bit as a good example of uh fantasy romance. So then you also said you binge listened quite a bit of the episodes and you're like, okay, I see that there are some tools here I can pick up, even though I've already written 20 plus books.

SPEAKER_01 7:53

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 7:54

Absolutely. Do you remember? Like, was there something in particular that you were like, ooh, this is one of those tools I need?

SPEAKER_01 8:00

You know, I think it was not as much about the tools, although I have used several of the tools that you have, you know, instituted in the notes to novel course and also in the podcast. It was, I think, a a change in the way I thought as far as my approach went. So for me, the main one, and it really, really stuck was that don't think in terms of chapters, think in terms of scenes, because that is how your reader approaches the book when they read. It's scene by scene, connect scene by scene. It's not looking at it chapter by chapter by chapter, which is often how I would view it. And I know that a lot of that probably fell within sort of a natural process as well, since I wrote in dual point of view. So there is a high concentration on chapter by chapter, but it was really super important that I needed to rethink how I approached it. And it was more what scene by scene. That made a huge difference in my latest book, how I handled it, because I did not only dual point of view, I did dual timeline with flashbacks.

SPEAKER_00 9:07

You don't do anything easily, do you, Chris?

SPEAKER_01 9:08

Yeah, I was gonna say I would not

Stop Thinking In Chapters

SPEAKER_01 9:10

recommend that to a new writer at all, you know. But the thing is, I don't know that that I would have approached that if I did not have that changed mindset from listening to that podcast where you mention that.

SPEAKER_00 9:22

Yeah. So can you talk about that a little more? Because I think a lot of writers, you know, myself included in the past, you you read a lot, right? So you come into it thinking, okay, my favorite book had 28 chapters. I'm going to try to emulate that and write 28 chapters. And then we kind of dig ourselves into a hole. So talk about what that looked like practically approaching it in scenes versus chapters.

SPEAKER_01 9:44

It became much more fluid and easy. Um, because at that point, instead of looking at what was connecting a chapter, I looked at what was connecting a scene. And because of that, especially since in each chapter, I had one point of view and a flashback, or not a flashback, but a dual timeline within that same point of view. So the connection of scene by scene had to work. You absolutely had to have that packed dual timeline match with the current one that I had just written. So when you'll if I tried to do it strictly by looking at, okay, I'm gonna split this out and I must have 28 chapters, no, because I think at that point I would have seen sort of a slog in the middle because we all know what happens at two. Yeah. And I think as long as doing it scene by scene instead of chapter by chapter, your chapters will have a natural breaking point if you are connecting your scenes correctly.

SPEAKER_00 10:42

Right. And it's funny because uh we have like a request inbox where people can submit things they want to hear about in the podcast. And one of the most requested topics is how to connect your chapters. And they're kind of asking this question without knowing that they're asking this question. So it's exactly what Grace is saying is when you focus on the scenes, you have an easier time with the chapters because you've already written a well-structured scene that leads directly into the next well-structured scene. So it just gets easier. And I'm so glad that that was one of the things that made a big difference for you, Grace.

SPEAKER_01 11:13

Oh, yeah, huge difference. And I mean, I saw it shave off an enormous amount of time on what I was spending because, you know, I was also mingling, okay, where am I going to make this break and so forth? But once I was much more focused on the scene connection, there was just a natural, very easy flow and break for each chapter that went after it.

SPEAKER_00 11:35

Yeah. And this is so interesting too, because you were such a discovery writer that sometimes I know people are listening and they're like, but you were a discovery writer and now you like writing in the scene, you know, scenes with scene structure and all that. Um, did you find any resistance to doing it that way?

SPEAKER_01 11:50

You know, I did not. Um, once I got over the idea that, and I know where my block was, was you know, I went when I was in college, it was, I'm sure everybody who took English composition always remembered how uh you had your thesis statement. Remember how it had the upside down triangle, then you did three or four block paragraphs, and you had the right side up triangle for your conclusion and stuff like that. It was so rigid. Okay. And so, because they wanted you to stay within that. So I always viewed outline within that same sort of rigid structure and absolutely followed the philosophy that an outline was a depth of creativity, which actually is not the case now. I have been thoroughly convinced otherwise. I still don't use um a very strict, you know, rigid outline, but I like the idea that you had mentioned before that it is a living document, that it is meant to change as you go along, but it still provides structure. And structure is very important to teach you how to work smart, not just hard.

SPEAKER_00 12:54

Yes, I love that. There was a contractual deadline you had that kind of put pressure on this idea of like, I know I can probably do this faster, more efficient, and still without sacrificing quality, because that's always the biggest concern, right? Sure. And so the contractual deadline, you can talk about what that was if you want, but how did that kind of factor into this idea of like, I need to figure out a way forward?

SPEAKER_01 13:18

Well, in this particular case, for the one where I really just poured everything I learned from your stuff into the work itself, it was not tied to this particular contract, but I did have a pre-order out for uh Amazon. And I had already uh delayed it by a month. And then the new one was coming up, and I'd had a bit of a uh health scare. I've been three years in remission um from a cancer diagnosis, and so I'm still on monitoring, and I'd gotten a call from my oncologist at the end of December, and they said, Hey, we need you to come in. And I thought, oh God, you know, so this could be a real issue. And I had talked to my very good friend and fellow author and Alona Andrews and said, What do you think? I'm thinking I may have to cancel this pre-order. And she's like, You cannot cancel that pre-order. So you have got to get that book done. You've already canceled a pre-order before, and that is going to have an impact on how your readers view your reliability. And I was like, you know what? You're right. So I ended up taking all that high anxiety because my appointment was not going to be until a month later, near the end of January. Oh, yeah. I was just like, oh my gosh. So I just ended up taking all of that high anxiety and knowing that deadline was on me and just focused it completely on writing this book and getting it done by that pre-order deadline. I think it was like it was gonna go live on the 31st. I had to have it uh uploaded to Amazon on the 26th of January. So between me and my editor, evil editor Mel, who I love dearly, she was just like, we got this, we can do it. And so I started writing and I go old school. I handwrite in spiral notebooks and then I transcribe. And so I had already had 20,000 words uh on the book, but obviously I needed a lot more. So I jammed through an additional 62,000 words in 21 days. I hand wrote all of it and then transcribed it. We got that file loaded in an hour and 32 minutes before the deadline hit.

SPEAKER_00 15:24

Oh my god, that is amazing and stressful.

SPEAKER_01 15:26

It was, but you know, at the same time, all that anxiety, it kept me. I was able to sleep at night because I worked so hard during the day on the book. However, that being said, it's not just anxiety that did it. I had a plan in mind, and

The 62,000 Word Deadline Sprint

SPEAKER_01 15:40

it was definitely based upon the advice I'd gotten from you. I don't think I could have done it if I had not changed my mindset, you know, based upon what you had mentioned in your various podcast episodes. I mean, it was it was a real, it was a real game changer for me. And it that was that book, it's called The Moon Raven, was one, it's a perfect example of putting the everything I had learned directly into practice. I mean, under hard deadline, you know, um, and then working with, like I said, a sort of a multi-tiered kind of thing. I had dual point of view, I had dual timeline, I had flashbacks and stuff like that. And when my my poor editor, I was just I was writing it and I just fire it off to her. I didn't even proof it. And so she would go through it. We ended up cleaning it up a little bit later once we got under the deadline and so forth, because then you can update somewhat. Yeah, but and then I've since expanded it um to 95,000 words. But when she was going through it, she you know, she was telling me, she said, you know, the the last chapter is a little bit underwritten, but and I've expended it since. But she told me she said, This is a solid book. This is very solid. My beta reader, who's also a content editor, so it's like having a beta reader, you know, on jet fuel. She was going through it as well. She said, Good, she goes, This is great, this is very solid. And I knew where that was coming from. I had followed for once in my life in my entire career, I had followed the advice of structure.

SPEAKER_00 17:09

And what did that feel like to get that feedback? Because that's not just one random person, that's two people you really trust saying, yeah, hey, you produced something really solid. And it was not under perfect circumstances at all.

SPEAKER_01 17:21

Nope, nope.

SPEAKER_00 17:21

I had that feel.

SPEAKER_01 17:23

It was amazing. It was one of those ones. It's like, I guess if I wanted to just boil it down to a quote from one of my favorite Disney animations. Um, it was one of the I love it when I win.

SPEAKER_00 17:37

Yeah, and it's it's kind of like your hypothesis of what's possible when you have the right process and systems, like you did something fast. I mean, 62,000 words in 21 days, that is unreal. And it wasn't bad quality, it was good quality that you actually got the stamp of approval from two trusted people. I think a lot of people think that when you go fast, you sacrifice quality. And this is like the a master class, and no, you can have both. So very cool.

SPEAKER_01 18:04

Yes, exactly. And I knew to trust that process just because I do have fellow um c writer colleagues and authors who, you know, actually they follow similar processes and they it's not an issue for them to crank out 5,000 words a day. Yeah, you know, they can do, I mean, for me, I was like, you might get 5,000 words a month out of them, maybe, you know, and this is before I did this. But I knew that they were following a process. The only problem was the process they were using worked for them.

SPEAKER_00 18:36

Right.

SPEAKER_01 18:36

It did not work for me. And I think that was the other thing was I needed to find a process that worked for me. I am not structured in my daily life. I have tons of interruptions and so forth that come through the house. I can't close myself off. You know, I have an autistic, epileptic son that I need to keep an ear out for when I work, right? You know, stuff like that. So, you know, I have to, I still have to remain engaged with my family activities, but and that does slow me down. But the structure part helps me get past those very unavoidable obstacles.

SPEAKER_00 19:09

Right. It's kind of like having a safety net that you can kind of just come back to when you're able to pick up the pen or the keyboard, whatever. And then you can just pick up where you were before, which I'm sure is interesting to a lot of people because you've said multiple times, like, I am a pants, I'm a discovery writer. And now you've embraced these tools and you haven't lost your creativity.

SPEAKER_01 19:27

No, not at all. And it's still pants and I'm still discovery writer. Like when I just recently did this expansion, I was working on the like last the last chapter, which was in the climax scene, and then moving into the epilogue. And um, as I worked on that, I was just going along and I just had this one thing that I wanted to put in. I was like, oh, this connects this scene with this scene. And this is one of those ones where this one single sentence was going to help me stick the landing. Cool. I just had that gut feeling it was gonna work. And so I I had no idea to use it prior to me sitting down and working on that chapter. And then when I turned it over to my beta reader and turned it over to my editor, my editor came back and said, I hate you, you made me cry. And which was great. You know, I mean, it's not that it was a sad ending or anything because I don't write sadnings, I always write H E A. Yeah. But um and then my beta I stuck it, and my beta reader said the same thing. She said, My favorite part was this line. So I knew I'd nailed it. So, and I think once again, it was that scene connection.

SPEAKER_00 20:35

Yeah. Which is so interesting because all writers want that moment and that feedback. You know, they want those little things to land and just affect readers that way. And they think, and I know you thought like this too, that if you structure anything, you're kind of handcuffing yourself and those moments won't happen and you'll write something generic like everybody else, right? And that isn't true. That didn't happen. So I'm curious if you'll indulge me and listeners, um, what does it look like as someone who is a discovery writer or a pantser? Like, what does structure look like for you? Are you talking about a full scene by scene outline? Are you talking about um like a spreadsheet? I'm sure you're not, but like what does that look like for you?

SPEAKER_01 21:14

You know, I think it's mostly for me. I wouldn't say that I've everybody else should do this or the people who like, you know, much more structure within that kind of thing. Um, for me, a lot of times I will literally jot it down on a paper towel that's like next to me at the table, and then I'll tuck it into my notebook and I'll have a note off to the side that says scene, blah, blah, blah. I may not always know where I'm going to stick it, but I know I'm gonna put it somewhere. And it's just the very, very basics of goal, motivation, and conflict in that scene.

SPEAKER_00 21:47

Yeah, I love it. And that's great because like it came out of your brain, you were creative thinking about it, and then you still don't know how it's actually going to unfold on the page, you know? So you still get to be creative within that. And I also know that um, you know, because You've written so many books before, probably some of the stuff in Notes the novel about like developing your theme and your characters, you're probably doing a lot of that instinctually before you even get to this point. Is that accurate?

SPEAKER_01 22:12

Yes, absolutely. I think the more you write, and I think this is where the idea of skill level and craft come into play. And that is it's just like going to the gym. It's just the mental gym. You are building and flexing that writer muscle. Yeah. Um, Ursula Le Guin, I think everybody all knows who she is, on a very iconic fantasy sci-fi writer. She has a book out called Steering the Craft. Yeah. And that's basically what she says is that you instinctively know where something may is going to work or something may not, or something is off. But that often comes with just doing it over and over and over. And then you instinctively understand, all right, this I need to go back and address this. Something is wrong here. And then using things like for me, for the notes to novel or the podcast itself, I can go back and say, well, you know what? She mentioned this. I wonder if this is where my problem may be. So now I have that. And that's where the toolbox comes in.

SPEAKER_00 23:12

Right. Yeah. And I think what's cool is I talk

A Living Outline For Pantsers

SPEAKER_00 23:15

about the toolbox all the time because writers, we're all building our individual toolboxes. And then we pick up the tool when we need it. We know we buy a new tool if we need it, we improve tools, whatever. And one of those tools I kind of want to dive into is you said, um, so scenes were a big thing for you, the outline uh for a version of an outline that worked for you, and then also fleshing out your antagonist. Do you want to talk about that a little bit?

SPEAKER_01 23:38

Oh, yeah, for sure. So for me, I another aha moment besides the scene connection when I was going through the notes to novel and the podcast and so forth was the idea that when you approach it, you need to have a really solid idea about that antagonist because the antagonist is making plans and doing things and so forth without any consideration of what the protagonist is doing or how their actions will affect the protagonist. So I think for me, it was up until that time, I was thinking less about the antagonist first and more about the protagonist when really it should be one was being reactive to the other. I needed to flip it. And wow, did that make a difference? Because the current book that I'm working on, I was able, when I changed my thought process, said, okay, let me concentrate on this antagonist and what their goals are, their fears, their wounds, you know, everything like that. It was wild because once I nailed that in my head, wrote down a few notes and so forth, it was able to jack the stakes up for the protagonist hugely, I mean exponentially for me, which is great. You want to raise those stakes as high as you can. And it was raising the stakes and also the motivation for both people, not just it totally changed how I was going to approach the protagonist, you know, motivation and just by putting that antagonist first.

SPEAKER_00 25:08

Yeah. And I think like for some listeners, I know that will sound like it's just a craft tool, right? It's like the craft of developing your antagonist. But what I think Grace will probably see if she hasn't seen already is that when you do this kind of work up front in tandem with the protagonist, you can go faster and you're gonna write a more efficient draft because you're not having to worry about this in revision. Oh, which I'm sure you've done in the past, Grace. Like, because you said you're like, I don't really think up too much about my antagonist. Has there ever been a book where you're like, oh yeah, I had to add them back in later?

SPEAKER_01 25:41

Yes, or I had to flesh them out more. They they tended to be a little flat. Yeah. You know, and a lot of times I wouldn't be able to, you know, expand upon them, make them a more three-dimensional character until I was so much later into the book. At that point, I was on, I'd hit the ground running, I was in the groove, and then I knew where to make the changes. This time around, I could make the changes at the very beginning.

SPEAKER_00 26:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:05

And even before I wrote the rest of the words, I knew where I was going with it. So I knew it was going to save me a lot of time. So instead of writing a bunch of words and then say, like, you know, throwing 5,000 of them out and then rewriting it so that I had another new 5,000, I didn't have to do that. I could just put everything up in the, you know, I already knew from the very beginning how I was going to do it just because the way I changed my focus.

SPEAKER_00 26:30

Yeah. And I think that's what um a lot of writers tend to think when, because they're they're probably just like you when they think about an outline, they think about school and they think about the bullet points or the inverted triangle, whatever. However, we learned it, right? And it's very rigid and structured and flat feeling. Um, but when I think about process and kind of adding structure to work, I think about it in terms of making some of these foundational decisions up front, like you're talking about. And in an order that allows you to kind of, okay, if if A is true, then B must be true. And then you can develop these things together, which means you hit the ground or the page with so much more ammo and you're ready to, you know, you can pants your way through it at that point if you want, or you can create a more um solid scene by scene outline, whatever your process is.

SPEAKER_01 27:17

But exactly.

SPEAKER_00 27:18

Yeah. I love hearing about a little behind the scenes of your process. There's so many questions I want to ask you about how you do everything. But talk to me about what I know you said, and you can tell me as honestly as you want, but I know you said you were hesitant to sign up for notes to novel. Talk about that a little bit, and you're not going to hurt my feelings.

SPEAKER_01 27:36

Oh, yeah, no problem at all. Um, I think it's because a lot of times you see some of these very expansive, you know, workshops that are available out there. I knew that you were going to have uh great value to offer in the notes to the novel just because I'd been listening to so many of your podcast episodes and fiction writing made easy. My concern was that I had been doing this for a really long time, and I wasn't sure if it was going to be a situation where this was much more focused on the brand new writer or one who maybe only had one book out, maybe two books, you know, that kind of thing. And yes, you do have more experience when you write one book or when you write two books. Uh, but honestly, you just continue to gain experience. You are never stopped out, your tank is never full. Um, you keep writing, you keep learning, kind of thing. So I think my main concern with notes to novel was before you know when I was hesitating, was that it was going to be more focused on an author who was in a very different place from where I was. Right. You know, one of these ones I'd be like, oh, I already know that. I already know that, I've already done that, I've already nailed that. I understand that and so forth. So, but um after, like I said, after using what you had, you know, put into the podcast and so forth, I was like, you know what? I think I'm gonna go ahead because I saw just how fruitful it was applying your advice into the Malone Raven when I was writing it and that super tight deadline and under high anxiety and so forth. I thought, you know, I I think that notes to novel is going to help me just as much. So, and sure enough, it did.

SPEAKER_00 29:17

Yeah, and it's I mean, not everyone is gonna set themselves up to write 62,000 words in 21 days, but you're such a great example of

Put The Antagonist First

SPEAKER_00 29:25

like how fast and you know, you can produce something of such good quality still with tools available. So talk to me about you had a contractual deadline around there was three books, right? Was that?

SPEAKER_01 29:38

Yeah, I've got right now, things have changed. If when we first started talking about this, um, I landed a four-book contract with um a publisher. Uh, I'm waiting to fill out paperwork and so forth on that. And with that happening, you know, when they were asking things like, okay, so when do you expect to have this trilogy? When we're talking delivery dates, and of course, before that, I was always like, oh, it's like, well, you know, here's my 10,000 caveats. Yeah. You know, it's like, I don't know, I'm gonna try for this kind of thing. Very, very patient. So, but this time around, I with great confidence, I could tell them, you know, as long as I stay in remission and don't have recurrence or any kind of crazy, you know, health issues, I can have this book done by this date for sure. And that's strictly because I had the tools and I had that change of mindset, you know, from taking uh your course and so forth, that I could say with great confidence, I could have this done because I knew that I could apply everything I had learned. And I had already applied it one time around, knew that it would work into this next trilogy so that I can meet those contractual deadlines.

SPEAKER_00 30:50

Yeah, which is such a huge deal. And that's what you wanted up front. You wanted a faster way to write something of good quality. And I feel like you have that. And what's really cool is like a lot of writers, whether they have publishers or not, they want to be able to plan for things because that, you know, as writers, we tend to have a lot of anxiety about different things. And we want to be able to say, okay, if I want to finish my first draft by June, what does that look like? And if I want to publish it by October, what does that look like? And I think there are probably people who are their interest is peaked when you say, I now know I can make the deadline by this date. Talk about like how do you how do you know that or what how would you plan to do that? What does that look like?

SPEAKER_01 31:30

You know, I know at this point I'm very familiar with my own work process just because I've done it for so long. So there's that. And then change in my work process based upon what I've learned is the other thing. And then, you know, experimenting once again with this previous book, you know, it's one of those ones, okay, let's put to the test what it is I think I can do, and it worked. So as far as like what I'm planning for this trilogy where I've said, yes, I can give you this book on this date, this book on this day, and this book on this date, is I will go back with the notes to novel stuff that you have put out there, and I'll say, All right, I'm gonna select this. This is where I'm going to change this, and based upon you know, this particular bit of advice. I don't always go like from from point A to point Z, you know, on that. I may, I may cherry pick, you know, what I needed uh from the course and so forth and use that. Or I will uh go ahead and you know sort of reevaluate what I may need on one particular chapter. And that's the other thing as well, is that as I continue to pants through the book, I can write out the chapter, go back and look at it after a couple of days of being away from it, and then say, something's off on this, and then go back to what you know, looking again at notes to novels. So I'll know that I'll always have that there as that continual reference point as I write the book. So I will have that living document outline. You know, once again, it's just going to be scribbles on a piece of paper tucked into a notebook. It'll be on a paper towel. Oh, you know, I wish I could tell you, oh yes, I have this dedicated book and I have everything set. Nope.

SPEAKER_00 33:17

So I think that's it's actually great you're saying that because so many people want to have the perfect process or the, you know, the one that looks organized or whatever, you know, or they follow something like whether it's save the cat, notes to know, whatever it is, and they think they have to do every single part of it to be successful. And you're kind of giving in a roundabout way permission to say you can pick up the tools you need and want, ditch what doesn't work for you, be messy, um, and also believe that you'll get to the end and you'll do it. So I think that's super cool.

SPEAKER_01 33:47

Absolutely. I mean, it's yeah, I think the thing, at least for me, as I every person is different, every process is different. Not, you know, what works for one is not necessarily going to work for the other. I have to have an enormous amount of flexibility in that outline structure. And otherwise, for me, what happens is that I will lock up if it gets too, you know, strict. And I'm just like, okay, I cannot, that I cannot use because now I'm mentally stuck, you know, and I do have to percolate um over what I'm about to write in a particular chapter. You know, it can be while I'm driving or it's, you know, whatever, be like, oh, hey, wait a minute. And a lot of times what I find is that by thinking my way through chapter five, whatever, yeah, that I just found a key point that's going to work in what I think will be like chapter nine or scene 37 or something like that. So then I just need to keep it in mind that as I'm connecting scenes as we're going along, that what appeared in scene 15 will have massive impact in scene 39.

SPEAKER_00 34:54

Yeah. Interesting. To wrap things up, Grace, because I could talk to you all day about this. Um, I think we'll have to have you back. Like maybe when you finish that trilogy and we can talk about like what did the timeline

Foundation Advice And How To Continue

SPEAKER_00 35:05

look like? Did you hit those goals? No pressure. Sounds great. Um, but any last minute, like words of wisdom for, you know, maybe the pantser who's kind of like, I I am a pantser, but I kind of feel like my process isn't working, or you know, people that are just starting out. Any words of wisdom?

SPEAKER_01 35:24

Um, you know, I think it's gotta be one where you have to treat the book as a house. And if you're building that house, no matter you know, whether or not you want to use timber framing or stick framing and so forth, the house still has to have a solid foundation. And your outline provides that foundation because it includes the structure, it gives you a guide point. You've basically got your architecture set out. Okay, that's what you can follow as you build that story and you need that. Um it doesn't have to be one of those ones where you stick yourself in a cage. Okay, again, that outline is flexible. And I think that's really where I had to change my mindset. To me, the outline was always inflexible, right? Once I learned that nope, not necessarily. Again, it's the living document, it can change and so forth. But as long as you have guideposts, and I think that's the main thing, is that you can take seven different paths to get to that final result. But as long as you have a guidepost on each one of those, as long as you follow that, you're not gonna wander off into the weeds. And that's what happens without it.

SPEAKER_00 36:34

Yeah, I totally agree. And I love the way you said that with the house uh example, because imagine we give, let's say Grace is building a house, I'm building a house, and three other people are building houses. We're all gonna do it differently. We're all gonna paint it differently, decorate it differently, whatever, lay it out differently, but we're all gonna build a house, right? So that's kind of exactly our our collective goal is to write books and we're all gonna do it in our own unique way, but there are kind of these architectural elements that we do need and you know how you use them again. Grace is a perfect example of like, I like the structure, but I also don't let it cage me in. So there's flexibility in all of this, but super love that, Grace. Um, thank you so much for sharing all your wisdom and for being here and letting me pick your brain. I had so much fun. Oh, I did too. Thank you very much for bringing me on board to chat. It was a lot of fun. Grace's story is such a good reminder that fast drafting doesn't have to mean sacrificing the quality of your work and that the right structure can actually set you free to be more creative. It's just like Grace said: whatever kind of outline you decide to create, don't think of that as a fixed document. It's a living document that can grow and flex and change and develop as you get to know your story more. And in fact, it should. Now, I know you're going to want to check out Grace's work, including her most recent book, The Moon Raven. And yes, that's the same one she wrote under that wild deadline that you just heard about. So I will link to that book as well as where you can find Grace around the internet in the show notes. And if you enjoyed this episode and had fun taking a peek inside of Grace's process, maybe go give her a shout out on social media or send her a little message. I'm sure she would absolutely love to hear from you. And if you're someone who wants to learn how to write a novel or improve your existing process, come join me inside of my Notes to Novel course. This is my step-by-step program that helps you turn your ideas into a finished draft, and it'll teach you how to build out your story's foundation, create a flexible outline that you can trust, and make consistent progress so that you can finally finish your book, even if life is messy and even if you have limited time to write. You can learn more by clicking on the link in the show notes. And while you're there, if you like this episode, go ahead and tap those five stars on Apple or Spotify. If you're listening on Apple and feeling extra generous, please leave a written review. I read every single one of them and hearing from listeners just makes my day. Plus, your reviews also help other writers find the show, which means more finished drafts and more published books in the world, and who doesn't want that, right? Now, coming up in the next episode, I'm going to share my thoughts on a piece of writing advice that you've probably heard a hundred times, and that is to just start writing. This advice is everywhere, and for some writers, it's exactly what they need to hear. But if you're a newer writer who hasn't figured out the basic shape of your story yet, then it might be one of the worst things you could take action on. So I'm gonna break down what that advice gets right, where it quietly leads writers astray, and the one thing that can help you decide whether the advice to just start writing is the right advice for you, or if it's the reason you'll quietly abandon your draft. So tune into the next episode for that. Alright, now that's it for today's episode. As always, thank you so much for tuning in. I hope your writing is going well, and I will talk to you next week.