Why Outlines Create More Freedom

SPEAKER_00 0:00

A lot of people feel like the outline is holding them back in a way, right? Like if you're a pantser, you're like, oh, I feel like I'm chained. And to me, it's the opposite because it means I have to keep all of the ideas that I get on the go in my head. That is so stifling. That is so stifling to me. Like that's the opposite. And so having that outline already done meant like I could write, and it sounds crazy, but I really observed this as I was doing it. I could write three sentences and it made, I'm not kidding, it made jumping back into the paragraph later, once my kids had gone to bed, that much easier.

Meet Jackie JJ Henley

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Whether you're brand new to writing or more of a seasoned author looking to improve your craft, this podcast is for you. So pick up a pen and let's get started. In today's episode, we're going behind the scenes of One Writer's Journey to hear how she finished her first draft and wrote the whole thing almost entirely in stolen moments between school drop-offs, swim lessons, and drive-thru lines. My guest name is Jackie Heninger, who publishes under the pen name JJ Henley. And she's a mom of two, a former teacher, as well as a passionate reader who spent years in the book community reviewing other people's stories before she finally decided to write one of her own. And in this episode, Jackie is going to share how being a beta reader for someone else's novel was the moment that changed everything for her, and why getting an inside look at another author's work in progress gave her the confidence to finally start her own. She's also going to talk about what it was like going through my notes to novel course, what happened when she took a year off from writing to care for a brand new baby, and how she came back to finish her first draft in eight months while her family was navigating one of the hardest seasons of their lives. Jackie's also going to share what it was like to type those two magical words, the end, as well as what's happened since she did. So if you've ever felt like life just keeps getting in the way of your writing or you're not sure you have enough time to actually finish your novel, then this episode is for you. And I know that Jackie's story is going to inspire you. So without further ado, let's dive right into my conversation with Jackie. Hi, Jackie. Welcome to the fiction writing Made Easy Podcast. I'm so excited to have you here today. Thank you for having me on. I'm really excited. We're going to talk about your whole writing, editing, and now publishing journey. And we'll get into that in a little bit, but can you tell everyone who you are, what you do, and things like that?

SPEAKER_00 2:46

Yeah, I'm Jackie and I'm publishing under JJ Henley. I am coming out with my very first debut. It's going to be romantic suspense. And I've been a part of the space for a while, as far as a reader goes. I've got a Bookstagram account called Bookroom Addict, where I've been like uploading reviews and stuff for quite a while. But before that, I've been listening to your podcast. And that has been, you know, a steady stream of ideas in the back of my head for a really long time, even before I committed to writing. And so kind of being in this space and getting the chance to beta read other stories and get advanced copies from other people, I realized that I could actually do this myself. And so that's kind of where I'm at now. And I'm I'm really excited about it.

SPEAKER_01 3:30

Yeah, so awesome. So that was like a little highlight reel. And we're gonna literally break it down piece by piece. But take us back to when you really decided to take writing seriously. Cause like you said, you were like, I've had ideas, I've been in this space for a while. What was it like to kind of shift from I'm in the space, I'm observing others doing it, to I think I can actually do this?

Beta Reading Sparks Confidence

SPEAKER_00 3:48

Yeah. So I started to take it seriously, I think in 2020 during, you know, lockdown because we had all that time and I was pregnant and I was teaching school and I actually was in the process of writing a middle grade novel. And I found your podcast. I think it was, I did you start right when the pandemic hit? Yep. Yeah. Okay, because I think I had found maybe like your program. I don't know if it was specifically notes to novel, but I had been following some of the stuff that you had posted online. And so I kind of like on your website. And so I kind of I think I actually found you there first. But listening to your podcast, I go on these long walks while I was home and started, you know, really formulating ideas with this like middle grade book that I wanted. And that went on for a little bit and then I had a baby. And of course, my brain, you know, went elsewhere. And I wasn't around third graders anymore. And so I kind of became like disinterested. So that's when I was like thrown into motherhood and it was really hard. And there was an influencer who was talking about how much she loved getting back into reading. And I was always, I feel like we often do this where we like go in stints, where we lead read like crazy, and then we take all these hiatuses and we forget how to jump in because I do think it takes a level of commitment to get that first 50 pages into a book. It's kind of hard to do that. And so once you're out of it, it takes a minute, but when you're in it, it's off to the races. And so I think I started with the hating game and I never really read just plain contemporary. I'd always done like romantic or thrillers. And so I got hooked. It was a long drive. We were driving home to visit my mom for Thanksgiving. And my daughter was in the car, and I was like, I need something for my sanity. And I started getting back into reading again. And so when that happened, that's when I, you know, created my Instagram account. And so I think that I started to get more serious about it in probably 2022, 2023, February, March. So it was kind of like it was like a six-month time frame where a friend had asked me to beta read her book. And I had had the idea for a serial killer story, but I wasn't putting it to anything. For some reason in my head, I didn't think that I could write romance. I was like, oh, just middle, you know, I was thinking of it more like, oh, that would be a cool idea. But I always thought if I jumped back into writing or that idea and everything, that it would be that middle grade. And so when she asked me to beta read her romance, I realized like, oh, I could do this. And like someone cares about my opinion to like make changes on something. And so that's when I started to get really serious. And literally, like right after reading hers, I signed up for Notes to Novel in 2023. I think I signed up in March.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

Yeah.

Course Enrollment And A Yearly Pause

SPEAKER_00 6:39

So it's really been, I mean, it's 2026 now, you know, it's been two years, I guess, since I started to like take it more seriously. Done a lot in those couple years. So yeah. Well, and even then, when I joined in 2023, I knew coming into it that I would only be a part of it for a short amount of time because I was about to have my next baby. And so, so I was like, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna do this for myself. I asked for it as a birthday present. That's so cool. For my husband, yeah. And I just did as many weeks as I could. And so I really didn't even I didn't even get to the outlining portion. I just knew the fact that I could go back to the course. I knew that like whatever was going to be, you know, all the information that was gonna be delivered to me was gonna be worth it enough to start it now when I didn't have a second kid. Yeah. I was like, okay, I owe this to myself. Like this is my push present. Yeah, I get to have this for me. And so it took a full year before I came back to it and started outlining. So from outlining, I mean, that was 2024 in October. So it really takes that long.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

Let's pause there because there's so many things I want to ask you already. I love how you said when you did a beta read for your friend and you were like, wait, maybe I can do this. And it's kind of because you got to see how how it was made almost, right? Like a background insight into a book that you're probably like, this is a good book. I like it. There's room for improvement, but I really like it and I could actually do this. Talk about that a little more because I think that's one of the coolest things about beta reading. Not that you're just helping people, that's great too, but also you get to see things in their messy states, you know.

Genre Choice And Romance vs Thriller

SPEAKER_00 8:16

Yeah. Honestly, that's my number one advice. If you want to write a story and you think that you can't be a beta reader, because it puts you on this like leveled playing field with other people where you realize, like, oh my gosh, we're all like don't know what we're doing. And every author podcast you listen to, they talk about how many times they had to edit or how many revisions or you know versions of their story came about. And so for me, when I was, you know, a bookstagrammer and reviewing books, I started to get frustrated with ARCs. I love getting advanced copies. That's great, right? And I had lots of people reaching out to me, hey, can you read this review or whatever? But um, it was funny, it got to the point where like it wasn't like enough for me personally to just have a free book. I realized like I wanted my thoughts and my feelings to like be taken into account, which was interesting. I didn't realize that I had that felt that way. And it also, you know, there was a couple bad like ARC like emails where they were like, if you rate it three stars or below, like I want you to tell me why and I want you to email me and I want you to whatever. And to me, like that felt it didn't feel organic. It felt like, okay, well, of course, then someone's gonna just like rate it higher because they don't want to have to have that awkward confrontation. Right. So it kind of like put ARCs on the back burner for a while. And it wasn't until this person who had followed me was like, hey, I would love it if you would beta read my story. And I hadn't even considered beta reading ever. And her name's Valentina Burns. And she's like been a wonderful, like, I mean, she's a very close friend now. She's on her fourth book. So her fourth book just came out, which is really cool. And I've beta read every story for her. And I got through it and just, I mean, even knowing I was like, oh, I didn't even know people just did this on a word doc. Like, I didn't, you know, I didn't know that you could just put notes in the side and review it that way and talk about it in such an informal way. And so we sort of, I left all the notes and we like piggybacked off of ideas. And sometimes I would even use my platform where she's like, Well, I'm not sure if I should do this or this. I'm like, I'll ask my audience. And so we'd like to take a poll, you know. Yeah, that's fun. I yeah, I found it like really enjoyable. And so, because of that, and I'm like forever indebted to her because of that, I was like, wait, like that idea that I had about a serial color, I'm like, I could do that, that could be something. And so, and I of course had written like little scenes and stuff. My husband was so sweet, he'd like the minute I told him I wanted to write when it was the middle grade, he'd like downloaded Scrivener for me. And so I'd had like random little scenes in there, which by the way, only one made it into the book, which is why it's so important to outline.

SPEAKER_01 10:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:53

There's my little like plug-in. But yeah, you know, it made a difference between just like floundering and like, wait, I could actually do this. So I mean, I think that's a great tip to anyone who like isn't sure if it's something they want to do. It also just builds confidence, you know.

SPEAKER_01 11:08

Um, and lowers the barrier of entry, I think.

SPEAKER_00 11:11

Right. Like you're like, oh, this is just a regular person. Like this is it, because we sometimes put authors on these pedestals.

SPEAKER_01 11:17

Right.

SPEAKER_00 11:17

I think traditional publishing kind of does that too because they're so out of reach, right? Like oh, I have to query 300 people to get, but yeah, that's another way that it really made a difference in like my author journey and how I pursued notes to novel and just like you know, took the plunge. I love that. I'd listen to the podcast for a long time. And I, you know, I do this with editors too, where I'm like, if you're giving free content, I can't imagine how good the not free content is, right? Like, and so I knew that it was good. And so I also felt invested in that way where I had listened to everyone and I was like, no, this she knows her stuff. Like, I'm just gonna jump in.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

So yeah, I think there's a difference too of like getting an article or a podcast about creating characters and then getting a system for how that plays with your theme and your outline and your plot and your conflict and whatever. So I think a lot of people do that where they'll study a piece of the craft or they'll like dig into learning dialogue because they know that that might really be one of their weaknesses. But until you see how that kind of fits holistically in the bigger picture and how to develop it alongside other things, I think sometimes that can be a disservice to the overall process.

SPEAKER_00 12:24

Yeah, that's a really hot take of mine too. Luckily, I wasn't someone who got too caught up in the learning, other than like podcasts, which didn't really affect me because I was listening to those while I was already doing something else, right? So that was like key. I remember I got a dialogue book that you had suggested. That was really great, but I felt lucky in that regard because I didn't, I almost was a little too naive. I didn't get so like hung up on that stuff, which was great. Personally, I think that it is so much more beneficial. And this is why I know that, you know, you preach about just writing and not going back. It's so much more beneficial to get the words on the paper. And then instead of reading an article about, you know, something that authors, you know, need to look out for, right? Whether that's like, okay, you need to cut down these words, or you've got too many metaphors here, or this is how dialogue works, or this is how instead of doing that, write your own and then get your editor to tell you what your own patterns are. Because it takes you so much longer to apply something you're reading that was sent out universally to all these other people and put it to your writing and you're trying to make it fit and you're trying to make it work versus getting that line and copy edit back and saying, oh my gosh, this is what I do that's a problem. And now, now that I fixed a couple of them, I'm on a roll going through my entire manuscript because this is something that I'm frequently doing wrong. Right. And it's like, no matter if I had gone back, I think about this all the time. I'm like, if I had gone back and reread other things, this book would not be done. Right because now having completed the manuscript, I can't tell you how often I want to change it, even now. And I've read it so many times, and I don't know if that feeling ever goes away where you read it and you're able to just be like, yeah, that's good. I go to post a quote on social media and I'm like, you're like, I hate it. Yes. Yeah. And so what so it's really funny because I'm like, gosh, I can't. If I hadn't taken that tip of advice, like I really would have not had a finished product.

SPEAKER_01 14:21

Yeah. So I think to your point, people discount that there's things you're already going to be doing well. So you might read a book on dialogue, for example. I know we're picking on dialogue a lot today, but you might read a book on that and be like, oh, I have so much improvement to make. And then you might get any kind of edit, developmental line edit, copy edit, whatever, or beta reader feedback that's like, hey, you write great dialogue. Actually, your problem is this. And so you could be focusing on one thing and it's like, no, no, that's actually going really well. Don't worry about that. You know, yeah, it helps to get outside feedback for sure. Okay, so this is interesting. I want to dive into like, I know you said you took a break when you enrolled in Notes Novel, then you had your second baby, and then you came back to it. When you were going through the course, was there anything that like surprised you? Were there any big aha moments? I know you said the outline, but anything else that you're like, oh, this is how it works, or like this makes sense to me. Oh, yeah.

Outlines As Creative Fuel

SPEAKER_00 15:13

I fought it so hard. So, okay, when you're picking your genre, okay, I knew it was a serial killer. And this is like so I think about it now and it's so funny because I was digging my heels in and I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm the worst student. Like, why did I do this? But I knew my audience was romance. Like, I did not want to market to someone who was just interested in thrillers. And I don't necessarily think someone who just liked thrillers would even like my story because I knew I wanted the romance to be at least completely even with the thriller component or more. Right. And so it was really hard to pick that genre and call the romance a sub-genre. Like I don't know what it was about putting that label on it, but for some reason it just gave me like the heebie jeebies. It just like I was like, oh, like nails on a chalkboard. I can't do it. And it made sense to me, you know, as I was going through the course, like there are key scenes that have to happen. And if you're going to put one above the other, like it's gonna be a lot easier to feed those romantic elements through if you have the thriller and mystery components set up correctly. Right. And so I understood that I did. And it it wasn't until I started the outline because you're going through the series where you're like picking the theme and you're picking, you know, you're choosing all those things. And it wasn't until I got through the outline where I realized like how much my romance was able to literally just gel with it completely. Yeah. So it was hard. That was a hard thing to sort of wrap my head around. But once I did it, it clicked. And you know, it's funny too, because I would rate there was a couple small town, like suspenseful romances that I enjoyed. I really did. But I almost felt like it was the cherry on top of a Sunday instead of like being a part of the whole story.

SPEAKER_01 17:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:09

And those books were never my favorite. And so it's so funny that I fought it so hard when I'm like, you're not even like, those aren't even your favorites when they're the cherry on top. So, like, let's take the thriller component and make sure that it's really well established throughout the whole thing. But that was hard and that that actually did halt my momentum like quite a bit because we would move on from something, but I still didn't feel as connected to it. Right. And so it wasn't until like I rejoined the course after I'd had my son and a year later, actually, I I finished up the course and then I begged you to let me into Story Lab like four weeks earlier. Something remember that, yeah. Yeah, because I was like, I'm so scared of losing this momentum, but I was so excited because it had finally like clicked that like where the outline was going. And I was like, I need to work on this, and I have and then I need to ask her. So yeah, I think it'll surprise people how much going through all of those initial slides, because a lot of people when they write a book, they literally start with the outline. Yep. And like they're not even starting with like all of those other elements, and that's like the whole course, yeah, which is shocking to me. So when I do my second book, like I will go through the entire thing again. Like, cause I think that that's so crucial. And if I hadn't have done that, I probably would have ended up with a story that, like, you know, was great, maybe, but I didn't love it, like those other stories where it's the cherry on top.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

Right. And just so for listeners, if you're not familiar with content genre versus commercial genre, that's what Jackie's talking about. So her story was primarily a thriller content genre with a very heavy romance subplot. And then commercially, she's marketing it as a romantic suspense. And this is exactly the same problem that romanticy writers have because they're like, well, it's romanticy, it's romance in a fantasy world. And it can be, but most of the time, if you look at books like Fourth Wing, there's heavy life and death stakes and they're really action stories with that really loud romantic subplot that you cannot take away from the story and have it work. So it's very interesting because I'm like, yeah, I see this all the time with romanticy writers, and they have the same like ick or the same resistance to doing exactly what you described. So I love that you said that. And I love that. Well, I like ick. Yeah, it's kind of like it gave me the ick, right? But I love that you also said you had to make decisions quick and not get stuck and overthink it, because that's something else we do a lot, is we're like, well, it could be this or it could be that. And then it's like 27 weeks have gone by and you're still thinking about the same question. And even if you would have gotten it wrong, like, and I hate saying wrong, but let's say you chose romance, you would have figured it out, you know, but you wouldn't have gotten there if you didn't make some kind of decision.

SPEAKER_00 19:38

Right. And I think if I had done it that way, you know, I would have had this finished product because I probably would have still been able to work through it, but I would have had this finished product where I probably was like, something's not right here. Like it's not, you know, it feels like just like a little dash of suspense when I wanted it to be more. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:55

And there's a lot of levers that we all get to play with. I always think of it as like a dial board of volume dials, you know, switchboard. I don't know what we'd call it, but it's like Jackie can play with how high those thriller stakes go or how loud the thriller feels, but the structure of it is still there. So the story's satisfying.

SPEAKER_00 20:12

Right. And that's a really good point. And it is something that I I'm gonna have to work towards because when I've thought about like my branding and and what I want to do, I really I actually don't want to get stuck into only doing romance events, right? And pillars. I mean, I think I'll probably already always have high stakes, right? But that took a while for me to establish to and kind of with my branding, I decided that it's gonna be, you know, romance that spikes your pulse. So that's kind of love deadline, yeah, because I think I really do like those high stakes, but I know that it is gonna take me time to learn how to adjust those levels to what I want each story to be. And this one just made sense to be so full of it because it's a serial killer. It would be weird if it wasn't, right? Right. So I think that that was really helpful to have those slides going through and just build that really solid foundation because I do think I would have been disappointed in the final result if I hadn't.

SPEAKER_01 21:05

Yeah. And imagine like you go to your outline and you don't know how all the pieces connect, and then it's like you run out of steam. Of course you do, right? Because you don't have everything developed. And I think one thing that I want to get better at conveying in the new year this year is that plot is kind of where everything comes together. So when you outline, it really should be kind of one of the last steps, you know? Right. And I think like you said, a lot of people start there and then they get stuck and it's like, yeah, of course you did.

SPEAKER_00 21:30

Yeah, and that's why people don't understand, like, I think the value of the course because they just and it's because it's hard because all of us who complete it are like, the outline is amazing, right? Like, because it is, because you can step away from your computer and not worry that you're losing all of that stuff, right? You can, you know, help your kid, you can go to your kids' soccer game, you can jump up if you need to jump up and go do something else, and you know that thread isn't going to get lost. And so we love it so much that we just like preach it from the mountaintops. But at the same time, like you said, that's the Last piece, like there's so much more that actually helps you get to that point. And if you don't do that part, yeah, the outline would be so annoying and frustrating because you would be stuck all the time.

SPEAKER_01 22:10

All the time.

SPEAKER_00 22:10

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:11

So definitely. Can you talk about that a little more? Because I know that you mentioned you would literally write anywhere in little pockets of time you had. And you said that when you had your outline done, writing the book actually stopped feeling like guesswork, and you were like, I know what to do. I can do it in 15 minutes. Describe that a little because you had some funny little anecdotes you said about where you would write and stuff.

Eight Months To Type The End

SPEAKER_00 22:32

I wrote a lot in the In N Out drive-thru, like a crazy amount, which is so funny because I thought it was so wild at the time. But you know who came out and said that they did this is Abby Jumenez. Oh, really? And yes, she did it once in line at the grocery store while she was waiting for her groceries. And I just thought, like, that's so great. And maybe she has an outline, maybe she doesn't. I don't know. She's brilliant, but you know, but for me, and I wrote a little note about this too to make sure I mentioned because for me, a lot of people feel like the outline is holding them back in a way, right? Like if you're a pantser, you're like, oh, I feel like I'm chained. And to me, it's the opposite because it means I have to keep all of the ideas that I get on the go in my head. That is so stifling. That is so stifling to me. Like that's the opposite. And so having that outline already done meant like I could write, and it sounds crazy, but I really observed this as I was doing it. I could write three sentences and it made, I'm not kidding, it made jumping back into the paragraph later, once my kids had gone to bed, that much easier. And I would love people to really pay attention to that. They're like, did it help me to write those three sentences and then get back in easier? Because it makes all those little moments so worth it. And then it also shows you how valuable the outline is because I wrote at my daughter's dance studio, I wrote at my son's swim lessons. Like I said, I wrote in the drive-thru. And it wasn't just jotting down notes. Like I could write a sentence or two, and that was really helpful. Or down here, the in and out line is like 40 minutes. So I got like a good, healthy, yes, healthy paragraph in. But I think, you know, I would just pull it up and say, okay, this is, and what people don't realize either is that it changes a lot. So I would have like a, and I actually did it paragraph style, which is weird. Most people don't, but I would say, okay, in this scene, this is what's gonna happen. It's gonna go here. Okay, well, as I'm starting writing the dialogue, I'm like, oh, this is funny. I should have this part come first because if he says this line, it'll be funny. So a lot of times I would keep the elements in the scene the same, but how they got there or how they interacted through them ended up being totally different based off of what I, you know, felt like the mood was at the time, or if my character decided to be more sarcastic or whatever. So there was definitely elements of like, you know, it was flowing. There was a lot of change happening within it after I'd already said it. But I was like, I can stop this, get back on the freeway. And I'm not having to like, it's like when you see someone breaking the law and you're like, I need that license plate number, like repeating it in your head. You're like, in case something happens, I don't have to keep the license plate number in my head. I can just go about my own thing and know that it'll be there for me. And that like was so freeing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:17

And I think, like you said, it doesn't have to be this rigid thing that kills creativity. It really is kind of like your first draft. Like you're telling yourself the story and the outline, you're making sure the structure is there, the things that you've built through all that foundational work are there. And then because you've done all that work and it is a lot of work, you show up to the page and you're like, I just need to execute on everything I know now. And things can surprise me. That's fine. I know how to deal with it.

SPEAKER_00 25:41

Well, and the outline is creative. So, like when I was outlining and I remember watching, you want to you suggest about six weeks, and I was like, I'm gonna do this in four. No, get in six. And it was through that last element of like, you know, joining in all the sub plop elements and like making sure I had red herrings and all those kinds of for my thriller. But what was funny about it is I really enjoyed it because I knew that the creativeness popped into my head when I was doing other things. So I would, you know, try and work on the outline and I would have like that one question of like, okay, how do I get from here to here?

SPEAKER_02 26:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:17

And I really believe in, I used to love following Rachel Hollis and she's like really all about like the brain and how if you write something down like every morning, like it will eventually come to you and it's like a week how it happens. So I would kind of take a question that I was like, I don't know how to get from here to here. And then I would literally go do something else. And it was kind of nice because I knew that I was like, this works. I knew it worked, and it was also exciting. So I'm like, I gotta go like do something else. I'm gonna go take a shower and it'll come to me. I'm like, peace out, watch the kids. I'm gonna go do that, or I'm gonna go on a walk, or I'm gonna go on a drive and get a drink, or you know, something like that. Yes, and back, seriously. Yeah, so it was nice because I was like, that was me being creative. And I would listen to a song and I'm like, oh, what if this happened? Or I'm like, I'm gonna watch this movie tonight to see if I get some like inspiration or whatever. And so you are being very creative during the outline, and you're not stifling yourself at all. You are opening up those channels. So the fact that it's just not happening while you're writing, that's okay. And for me, it still will happen right while you're writing, right?

SPEAKER_01 27:17

Because it's a little different, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 27:20

So I think there's some misconceptions there about like the creative outlet with it. And I'm I'm actually excited for my next book because I have a couple ideas and I'm like, oh, I can't wait till I get to like the outlining part because that's fun. Now it's your favorite, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:31

Yeah, it really is. Okay, so how long did it take you to finish that first draft?

Fast Drafting Without Chaos

SPEAKER_00 27:36

Okay, so I started writing, physically writing. So I started the outline in August, and then I started physically writing in October, I believe. And I finished it in June. I wanted to finish it in April. So it ended up being eight months that it took me to write my first draft. I wanted it to be six months, and it was funny because I thought I had like a pretty good scale. Like you do this in the course where you go through and you're like, okay, let's like mathematically like let's lay this out and see what we can do. And I really thought I could do probably like one to two scenes a day, sometimes two scenes. And it was October, it was Halloween, there were activities going on, and I was nailing it. I was doing it, and so I was like, Yeah, this was good. Well, then in October, my son decided to stop sleeping. Oh no. And it was so painful because my daughter, I had a kid with me at all times because he would wake up the minute she was dropped off at preschool. Of course. And so I realized like I don't have that two hours during the day where like I could do that. Even when I was teaching school and I was working on that middle grade, I wrote during recess time and I wrote during lunchtime. Yeah. And I don't even have that, right? So I'm trying to eat lunch while my son's eating his lunch. And so it was just, it wasn't happening. And then it would go to be nighttime and I would be so tired. The good news is I wasn't stressed because I knew that I had this outline that my story wasn't going anywhere. If I didn't have that, I would have been very stressed that I would have lost the thread of my story. And that would have been really crushing because I was already dealing with something else. And I think that's what's so crucial here. And I did mention that my dad was diagnosed with cancer, like when we were talking in our story lab. And I think like there's gonna be outside stressors to your world, no matter what that looks like. And so when you feel like you're losing that part of your life and then you're losing yourself, this idea that you had that you wanted to see grow, that can be so much harder. That can be really unsettling. And so to have that and know, like, okay, this is just like a hard period of time right now, but I'm gonna be able to go back to it. And also to have kind of your voice in my head, which I think, you know, I've talked about this also in the story lab, but our your mindset episodes, I never thought like I would use and rely on as much as I did, but it really did become the own, like my own voice in my head. And so I was like, okay, let's not like this isn't all or nothing. And that's a huge thing that people need to understand. Like I said, two to three sentences here makes a big deal. So, not all or nothing. We're just gonna work on one scene like every two days, if that's what we need. And so I scaled it back. And the fact that I completed it, you know, just two months past the date that I wanted to, that's huge. Was huge. I was like, oh, this is fine.

SPEAKER_01 30:12

So yeah. But yeah, that's so huge. And I think what you said about not being stressed is such a big thing that I know that listeners who are hearing you say that they're like, Yeah, I currently feel stressed because I'm not writing it because I don't really know if there's an end in sight. I don't know if it's gonna be worth all this hard work and whatever. So the fact that you could put it down, give yourself grace, and not be stressed. Yeah, you know, like that's how you stay sane amidst all these life things because life is gonna happen. Life is gonna life.

SPEAKER_00 30:39

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_01 30:41

But I mean, eight months, that's still really great. And there's people listening who are like, gosh, I wish I could finish my first draft in eight months. That's very fast, you know? And you said something about misconceptions earlier. And I wanted to ask you about this misconception that writing a draft fast, in your case, eight months, that must have been super messy. And are you just like writing random stuff every day? Like, because people think it's about the time, right? Like you're just writing stuff to say you did it in six months or eight months. Oh, right. I'm gonna guess that's not the case for you.

SPEAKER_00 31:11

No, especially with a thriller where like if I didn't lay a certain clue, like that would be very problematic. You know, I had to really look at my scene. And I think that was another thing that did kind of it made it easy to break it down, right? So a chapter has about two to three scenes sometimes. It depends on the length of your scene. But for me, to section it off by scene made it a lot more manageable. So when I went in to start writing, I was like, this is where I'm starting, this is where I need to end up. And then I had to decide if I wanted that to be funny or if I wanted that to be sad or like the mood that that would go in, right? So when I was doing it, there was a finish line in sight, which made it really easy to jump into it. And so when you're fast drafting, like, yeah, there's certain things that like I got hung up on. And, you know, the advice is to just like not look those up or to just, you know, TK and put that in there. And so I definitely did do that sometimes. I actually didn't do it as much as I thought that I that I would. I found that I, you know, I'm and what's so funny is I'm like the least competitive person on the planet. It drives my husband crazy. But I did feel a little bit like I was in a race because each scene, you know where you're supposed to end. Yeah. So it's kind of like that point where like you get going and you're like, yeah, I want to reach it. So I think if I had just been writing for the sake of writing, yeah, that wouldn't have felt like I had reached that finish line, you know, it wouldn't have felt the same way. So having those written out and knowing where you're supposed to start and where you're supposed to end each time definitely helps. And what was the quality of your first draft like?

SPEAKER_01 32:48

I assuming there's TKs, assuming there's things that you need to work on, obviously, but did it read like a story?

Editing Lessons And Showing vs Telling

SPEAKER_00 32:54

There was a lot of telling. Yeah, I bet it's a first draft. A really disturbing amount of telling and not showing. And honestly, in this final draft, there's probably still gonna be lots of telling and not showing. You know, when I was listening to that podcast episode, because there's a podcast episode on it, that concept is very hard for me. It is so difficult. And this is why. See, this is why it is so important to just write the dang words, because I finally started to understand it when I got to my line and copy edit. And what's so funny is this isn't even something she noted I was doing a lot, but what she said was I would add in lots of ellipses, like unhealthy now. My characters like a lot of pauses. Okay. So they also like to interrupt each other. So with that, she said, okay, instead of an ellipse, what I want you to do is I want you to add in a specific movement. And I was like, okay, as I was doing that, that was when I finally understood how I was telling and not showing. Uh-huh. And I'm actually someone who's pretty good at interiority and that, like, you know, my characters never like shut up and that's fine. I can always talk on the inside. That was okay. But it was like that movement that I really struggled with. And I would not have been able to master that until I had someone editing my own specific draft, like I said, with my own specific patterns. And you think about this like with sports, okay. Like even an Olympic swimmer, we're in the Olympics right now, even an Olympic swimmer could not suddenly become the best Olympic surfer because even they're both in the water, but they're both utilizing two very different skills, okay. And swimming absolutely helps, especially if you crash, right? It really helps you in the water, but it's different muscles. And so for me, like to be able to have that specific edit and go through all of those stages, because by that point, I had edited my book like five times. And even still, I'm like, there is so much showing and telling. And so when I look back at that first draft, like there's no way I could have even gotten to where I was addressing the showing and telling if I hadn't just scrambled the words on the page. Right. And gotten it down.

SPEAKER_01 35:06

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:07

Cause like you say, you have to have something to edit. Yeah. And you really, really do. And I I'm so grateful, like, for I mean, it's so funny because afterwards I went to my husband and I was like, I should have someone line and copy edit this again. Because I was like, I learned so much during that edit. Has one's like, Yeah, we're not gonna pay more to do that again. Maybe first, should we like I really want it to? And he's like, People don't do this. I'm like, Yeah, well, traditionally published, they do. That's why they're editing for like a year, right? So you have to look that these are authors that are so prolific, like Nora Roberts. Okay, you've got all these people, they're not coming out with a ton of books every, you know, three months, like some of these indie published authors. They're taking a very long time to edit because they start out with something messy, but they get it written, and then it goes through so many different processes. So if you yeah, so it's crazy to think that like you can skip that. Yeah, yeah. Like you're just gonna sound like an idiot that from the strap.

SPEAKER_01 36:03

In theory, you can skip it, but it's not gonna be to your benefit. Right, right. Okay, so when you when you finished, yes, there was all that, but how did you feel about the draft you produced?

SPEAKER_00 36:13

I mean, I was so proud of it. It was cool. I like knew that I was a couple pages away from finishing. So I set up my phone and I recorded for like, you know, I don't know, 30 minutes of me doing it just so I could see the actual moment that I typed the end. And I was sitting right here and I cried because I just was so I knew that it was like complete. Like I knew that it like I worked through the hard stuff, right? So I did TK and all those kinds of things, but I knew that by the time I hit the end, like for the most part, you could pick it up and you could understand the entire thread.

SPEAKER_03 36:45

Right. Right.

SPEAKER_00 36:46

And so huge. Right. And it's because I had those key scenes for both the romance and the thriller components and those scenes that I knew were supposed to happen, those scenes that I knew would make the reader happy. So I felt like really, I mean, I felt really proud of that first draft. And I actually, I'm trying to remember, I don't think I did I print that first first draft. I don't know that I printed that first draft. I think I read it on my computer. One of my when I'm discovering problems with myself is I set up, I don't want to lose momentum. I always have this fear of losing momentum. And so I had set up my editor, my developmental editor, to read through my book after I'd finished it. And I had given myself like no time to edit the book myself after I had finished it. Yeah. So I was literally up for like 3 a.m. every night for like three weeks trying to like read and you know, go through and just make it so that it was like readable, yeah. Now readable for someone else. So that was like my mistake. But I do have a couple copies that my husband printed and spiral bound for me, which are really cool to have. And he's like, I know you're gonna want this because every time you read through it, there's something new you find. And that's just the process of writing. And so that's a really cool thing to kind of see how it's traveled through all those different layers. But yeah, I mean, it was it was real messy. There was so many words I'd overused like a million times, or I'm like, gosh, you know, and but we do that where we're writing and we're like, oh, I should look another word up for this. Don't pull out your stinking thesaurus, don't do it. Gosh, resist the urge. Yes, just like put that away. You can do that later. Just get the words out.

SPEAKER_01 38:22

Yeah, I love that. Okay, well, so you we don't need to talk about editing because you kind of already went through that for us. But by the time this episode airs, you will have just published your book. Is there anything that like you would like to impart on listeners about the publishing process? I know you have strong thoughts on self-publishing. What are you doing to market it? Just talk me through that stuff a little bit.

Indie Publishing Mindset And Length

SPEAKER_00 38:42

Okay, yeah. So I was so lucky when I was originally researching when I was writing that middle grade, looking, you know, for podcasts and stuff. I stumbled upon yours and then I stumbled upon the self-publishing school and a couple others. And so as I was listening to that, I really I developed a framework for just like accepting it as, you know, almost the same as traditional publishing. And I knew traditional publishing still kind of had a bit of a hierarchy there in my own mind, but I was very open to it. Well, then when I started, you know, reviewing books, these authors started to get picked up for hybrid publishing deals. And I had never thought about whether they were traditionally published or indie published because I was reading so many books, I was paying for Kindle Unlimited. So I was just doing the, you know,$10 a month and reading, I mean, when I was reviewing books, I was reading about 10 to 15 books a month. Like it was insane. And I'm not a fast reader, so I was just staying up really late, like being stupid. So when I was doing that, I decided to start looking into it and I was like, oh my gosh, all of these authors who I love the most are indie published. And that like completely changed my perspective. And I think, you know, maybe if you're not in the romance area, I can't speak to that. And I know it's a lot more common, you know, in romance to be self-published, but that was a really cool thing for me to realize. And then I started to take polls on my account and I asked, you know, my followers and I said, okay, like I love this author. I'm still like such a fan, but this book was traditionally published, and for some reason I don't love it as much as for other ones. And I started to see this like pattern emerging. And I asked other people if they noticed it, and it was like unanimous. They're like, yes, like I liked all. And what's so funny about that is also the traditionally published books were a lot shorter and the self-published were a lot longer. And I wrote wait, I wrote 123,000 words and I was panicking about it. I took away 10,000 words and then my editor added them back in with all her comments, and then I took away some more, and then the editor added them back in. So I literally still ended up with like 123,000 words, which is I'm I'm uncomfortable with. Okay. Like that makes me nervous because I'm like, you know, it's okay if something's long, if it's long for the right reasons, right? And then if it's, you know, I think I probably could have cut it in other areas. But, you know, with those books, I also asked my followers, like, hey, like what kind of range of books do you like? Do you want something to be like 300 or lower? Are you like in the 400 range? Most people were in the 400 range. And I just felt it interesting that like there's all these things that were, you know, traditionally told, like, you shouldn't do this or you shouldn't do that. And I'm like, but are the readers liking that? I don't know. And so I think to just assume that because someone goes through a traditionally published route that they're gonna know the readers that you have is silly. And, you know, I've listened to a couple podcasts that I love that have literary agents on them. And sometimes I feel like they're slightly out of touch, like or behind, like Western romances, like they were a little bit behind that. And so I think like it's okay. I mean, definitely still. And my goal is to, you know, get a hybrid publishing deal after about, you know, seven to 10 books. So that's what I noticed most of my indie authors did. And I think that's healthy because you learn all those things yourself. You're gonna have to do marketing yourself anyway. And so now you can ask for more of what you want because you've you've done that. And so I think, you know, I still think obviously aiming towards that 80,000 words. Yes, that's gonna help you a lot. You're gonna gain more readers because they're gonna be able to push through your books quicker. You probably have less fluff, you probably, you know, didn't do too much telling, right? So there's definitely things that I still really need to work on with that area. And, you know, I was listening to Pornika's podcast and talking about cutting words, and I'm like, I'm the worst.

SPEAKER_01 42:31

I mean you're like, I did it, but I put them back. Yes, I would say, yes. But, you know, to your point, there are things that a lot of people don't consider with why the rules exist. And it's traditional publishing is a business. They need to hit certain price points for certain types of books. And to do that, they need to keep the cost of production down. So it's like there's a lot of things that go into some of these rules. And but again, like you said, some of them are really there for a reason. There's also a lot of very inflated first drafts out there that do need to be cut. So it's you know, grain of salt. But other than like publishing on your Instagram, which you have a very nice following at this point, but other than like talking it up on there, what else are you planning to do for marketing?

SPEAKER_00 43:10

Okay, so I am gonna take out an Instagram ad. I'm gonna do a little campaign there. So I've got that kind of planned out. There's also, I'm really trying to reach out to book clubs because I think thriller and romantic are two really good areas to kind of reach out to book club groups. So I keep asking, you know, just like cold calling my friends like, do you have a book club group to sign up for an ARC? I've really focused a lot less on, you know, what happens when the book comes out and more of how can I get as many reviews as possible before it does. So I did not hire a company, and a part of me is like, maybe I should have. A lot of the companies I looked at wanted sensitivity readers, and I did. My developmental editor was basically a sensitivity reader. She's she poked at a lot of different things that might affect people. But ultimately, I was like, Well, this is a serial killer. And I was like, I don't know if that's gonna appease people. I'm like, I'm sorry. Yeah, it's gonna it's there's a lot of triggers, you know. And I've got the warnings at the front of the book. So, you know, I think kind of what I did with that is I didn't do the PR company. And so I'm like, okay, I have this huge Facebook group that I'm a part of on just a book lovers group. And so I've reached out to them and I think I'm gonna run an ad through them because they've frequently posted Jennifer Hartman, who is an author I love, and she wrote the book Still Beating. And that is very trigger-heavy. And so I'm like, oh, a lot of people liked this. So they might like my content. So I'm really trying to be very specific. I also like with my I order PR boxes myself. And so I am going to send those out to people that I know that I've followed for a long time. Not, they're not all bookstogrammers, but they're also people who just really enjoy reading. And I, you know, it's organic because I feel like I know them. I followed them for a couple of years and that sort of thing. So I'm doing it myself, which, you know, I don't know if that's the right thing to do, but I think if you can stop thinking about getting your investment back, because that's not gonna happen this first time around, you'll be a lot happier. And so my main goal is just to get as many reviews as possible so that that pops up in that algorithm and I'm not, you know, getting pushed under the rug because it's I'm new, so it's gonna take, it's gonna take a while. And yeah, my Instagram, it's not huge, it's like 2000 something. And I got most of those people right when I like originally created it.

SPEAKER_01 45:20

But they're really engaged. Your audience is really engaged.

Grassroots Marketing And ARCs

SPEAKER_00 45:23

They they I do know them very well. My stories are so funny. The one I just posted about the Olympian that cheated, I have never had so much engagement in my life. And I'm like, okay, like you the I must have like I know what you like because they all were very passionate and like responding. So it is funny. So I do feel really grateful in that regard because the a lot of the people who have signed up for my ARCs are not people I personally know, but of people who I've talked to in the chats a lot. So that's been really great. So yeah, I think you know, if you can create that Instagram and start, you know, start with reviewing if that's like what you want to do. Like that's how I started, and that's a really organic way to do it. And it offers your audience something without, you know, feeling too bad when you're promoting your book because you're like, Well, I've been giving you these reviews for a long time. So hopefully that's yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I enjoy it, it's my favorite place to be.

SPEAKER_01 46:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:11

Well, Jackie, do you have any last-minute words of wisdom for people listening? Yeah, listen to Savannah. Just I'm serious, just do it. Go in when I was student teaching, I had to accept that I did not know anything. Like I thought I knew I'd take classes. You maybe have read the books, right? You thought you know you knew everything about dialogue. Just stop and do everything that she suggests. I'm not kidding. Because if you go all in with this method, I'll call it a method. If you go all in with this method, if you go all in with notes to novel, you will have a finished product. I just can't stress that enough. All the little ideas about just not going back and editing or relooking TK, the key scenes, you know, even figuring out how many scenes you should write for yourself each week or whatever, all of those little tidbits are the reason that like I have my draft. And I really, you're in the acknowledgments, but I I I wrote it because I, you know, 2020 was so hard for everyone, but you were this very calming voice. And it was like I knew that this was something I wanted to do. And so it felt really, really special to like had you in my ear for so long and to see that that's the reason that I was able to, you know, produce this product. So I'm so grateful to you.

Notes To Novel Waitlist And Closing

SPEAKER_01 47:26

I love that so much. You're gonna make me get emotional about it because it's so funny. Like, that is literally when I started the podcast as well. So we've in a weird way been together since day one in both our attorneys, which is so cool. But Jackie, thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing all the details behind the scenes. I know that listeners are gonna just eat up everything you said. We will link to everywhere to find you on the internet, where to get your book and things like that. And I appreciate you. Just thank you so much. Thanks so much. Jackie's story is such a good reminder that finishing your novel isn't about having perfect conditions or unlimited time. It's about having the right system and then trusting that system even when life gets messy. So if you heard Jackie's story today and thought, oh my gosh, I want results like that, the finished draft, the confidence, the clarity of knowing exactly what scene comes next when you sit down to write, then Notes to Novel might be exactly what you're looking for. Notes to Novel is my step-by-step program that helps you go from scattered ideas to a finished first draft. You'll learn how to build a solid foundation for your story, create a scene-by-scene outline you actually trust, and finally make consistent progress, even if you only have 15 minutes at a time. Enrollment isn't open right now, but you can get on the wait list and learn more at Savannah Gilbo.com forward slash waitlist. So one more time, that's Savannah Gilbo.com forward slash waitlist to learn more about notes to novel and to be the first to know when doors open again. I'd love to see you inside the program. Alright, so that's it for this episode of the Fiction Writing Made Easy Podcast. Head over to Savannah Gilbo.com forward slash podcast for the complete show notes, including the resources I mentioned today, as well as bonus materials to help you implement what you've learned. And if you're ready to get more personalized guidance for your specific writing stage, whether you're just starting out, stuck somewhere in the middle of a draft, drowning in revisions, or getting ready to publish, take my free 30-second quiz at savannagilbo.com forward slash quiz. You'll get a customized podcast playlist that'll meet you right where you're at and help you get to your next big milestone. Last but not least, make sure to follow this podcast in your podcast player of choice because I'll be back next week with another episode full of actionable tips, tools, and strategies to help you become a better writer. Until then, happy writing.