SPEAKER_01: 0:37

Without an outline, I definitely would not have finished the book. But it's nice when the outline's actually done because then it's really just doing. It's it's doing the actual writing and there's not really any planning left to do. And without having that planning as a roadblock or, you know, trying to figure out world building or what do we do in this scene? Where do we start here? That type of stuff. It I feel like it makes it so much easier to write. Like you don't, I I personally didn't have as many barriers as I was writing. And I never went into writer's block when I wrote the first book.

SPEAKER_00: 1:13

Welcome to the Fiction Writing Made Easy podcast. My name is Savannah Gilbo, and I'm here to help you write a story that works. I want to prove to you that writing a novel doesn't have to be overwhelming. So each week I'll bring you a brand new episode with simple, actionable, and step-by-step strategies that you can implement in your writing right away. Whether you're brand new to writing or more of a seasoned author looking to improve your craft, this podcast is for you. So pick up a pen and let's get started. In today's episode, we're going behind the scenes of One Writer's Journey to hear how she wrote a 114,000-word draft in just 88 days, all while working full-time in corporate finance. My guest name is Pornika Kakanaya, and she's going to share what it looked like to finally take her writing dream seriously, even though she's a self-proclaimed perfectionist and even though she felt completely overwhelmed by all the conflicting advice out there. She's also going to talk about how she structured her time to make a lot of progress in a short period of time, even with a demanding day job and a chronic illness. You'll also hear all about Pornika's querying experience, including how it felt to get back-to-back rejections while on vacation, how a literary agent asked for her full manuscript after seeing one of Pornika's Instagram posts, and what it finally took to get offered representation. So if you're someone who works full-time and struggles to make time for their writing, or if you're someone who's worried about what querying will really be like, then this episode is for you. I won't make you wait any longer. Let's dive right into my conversation with Pornika. Hi, Pornika. Welcome to the Fiction Writing Made Easy Podcast. I'm so excited to have you here today. Hi, I'm so excited to be here. Can you just tell my listeners in your own words who you are, what you do, what you write, and things like that?

SPEAKER_01: 2:58

Yeah, so I'm Pornika Kakanaya, and I wrote a YA fantasy novel that I'm currently trying to get traditionally published. I'm a 31 years old. I live in Pennsylvania with my dog and my husband. And by day, I actually work in corporate finance. And then by night, I stay up really late and I work on my story. That's essentially what I do most of the time. I love reading, traveling to. And when I'm at home, I just really love baking and finding good coffee.

SPEAKER_00: 3:27

Love it. So let me give everyone the highlight reel because I wrote some notes down and then we're gonna just dig into each part of your journey step by step. So correct me if I get anything wrong, but we met in back in 2023 when you joined Notes to Novel. You finished a 114,000-word draft in 88 days, which still blows my mind while working full time. Uh you had a goal of finishing revisions and getting your draft kind of to the point of I'm ready to share this by your 30th birthday, which you did. And then the next year, which is this year, you started querying, you pitched at a few conferences, and then you signed with your agent. Did I miss anything in there? Nope. That's that's correct. That is such a cool highlight reel. And I don't know how that feels to you, like having it reflected back to you, but that's a lot in a short period of time. So congratulations. Yeah, when when you say it like that, it sounds really crazy.

SPEAKER_01: 4:18

Yeah. Like I'm like, how would I even do that?

SPEAKER_00: 4:21

Yeah, that is your life. So I want to take you all the way back in time to. I know you have told me before you had started writing a book when you were like in your teens, and then that fizzled out. And then I think you had made other attempts maybe from since then to now. But what um were there any patterns and things that like got you tripped up over and over again? That's a good question.

SPEAKER_01: 4:42

So yeah, I first started writing when I was in middle school. Um, and I was just writing like a cute little romance sort of story that like really fizzled out. And then I started working really hard on a fantasy story. Um, that one I thought was was gonna be the book I finally finished. And I m must have worked on it for three years throughout middle school and high school. And I never actually finished. I got to not even really the inciting incident. Like that's how little I I did, but I managed to write, I want to say it was at least a hundred pages. So I was just writing fluff. Um, I was so focused on character descriptions and prose and all of the the stuff that's really fun to write, but I had no idea how to actually write a story. And I had a sense in my head of what I wanted to happen. But when I actually got to the part of the plot where it's like, okay, the main character is now gonna set off on this journey, I just like could not convince myself to write that. And I felt very stuck at that point. Um, so that was that was really what where I always got stuck was like, how do I actually craft a good story and not just write really good prose?

SPEAKER_00: 5:59

Yeah. And I think that's where a lot of people get stuck because as writers, we're creative people, we have no shortage of ideas, we're inspired by everything. But then it's like getting that, you know, executing that idea and turning it into something we would want to read very hard. Yes. Um, and also a lot of us are readers too. So we compare whatever we start out writing to what we read, and we're like, ooh, this doesn't measure up. Which I know you are a perfectionist. So talk to us about that a little because I'm sure that influenced those early drafts and even the early drafts of the book we're gonna talk about today.

SPEAKER_01: 6:30

Yes, I'm very much a perfectionist. Um, I'm super detail-oriented. I don't like to start something unless I know that it's going to be perfect, which is why when I stopped writing, when I kind of gave up um on that fantasy novel in high school, I didn't write again until I turned, I think, 28, 29. Um, I just like basically put this whole dream of being an author on the shelf because I felt like I could never actually do it well. Like there was no way that I was gonna write the perfect book. So I was just not gonna write it at all.

SPEAKER_00: 7:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 7:04

And then um in 2023, I decided that's ridiculous. I'm gonna try to write this. But I still knew that I would have to get to a point where I was at least satisfied with what I had, like an idea, a good outline. Um, and I really didn't know how to do any of this. So that's how I started. I think in 2022, I started listening to your podcast. And then 2023 joined Notes to Novel. Um, and even then, like writing my novel, my outline, I still had to set a date for myself and just say, okay, January 1st, I'm just going to start writing. And if my outline isn't perfect, like I just have to write. And then while I was writing, what always tripped me up before was that I wanted to go back and edit what I'd already written so that it would sound perfect. And this time instead, I was like, nope, I'm just gonna write and I'm not gonna look back at anything that I wrote until I get all the way to the end. And that's how I managed to finish writing it in less than 90 days. But if I had stopped to edit along the way, I don't think I'd be done even today.

SPEAKER_00: 8:07

Yeah. Which is very common. And so there's a lot in there that you just said that I kind of want to pick apart because I know listeners are gonna resonate with everything you just said. One of them is so like you you decided one day, I'm gonna take this seriously, I'm gonna do it. And then there was kind of like about a year of trying and maybe running into walls. So, like, what did you try in that year or so before you and I met?

SPEAKER_01: 8:28

Yeah. Um, so like I said, it started with the podcast. Um, in 2022, I started a new job that I'm still at today, and it's based in New York, and I live in Pennsylvania. I have to take, I have to drive to a train station very far away in New Jersey, and then I have to take a train, I have to take a subway. So it's like a really long commute, and I only go um, you know, like once a month or so. But when I started going in 2022, I would listen to your podcast on the way, and they're very short clips, so I could get through a lot on my commute. And so I started like listening to that, and I was like, you know, I kind of think I can do this. And so I want to say it was like January 2023, where I finally said, I'm I'm actually gonna try to write a novel. And it just started with brainstorming. Like I would just talk about ideas with my husband every time I'd go out. Like if we'd go get coffee or we're going grocery shopping, I would just ask him these things. I started asking my friends for ideas once I started to get it more and more fleshed out. Um, and so it was really just brainstorming until I want to say it was like the summer of 2023, maybe around July. That was when I was like, I can't do this on my own. And I think what was happening was I I was doing research online and I was like reading your blog and listening to more of your podcast. Um, and I also got the the um Save the Cat writes a YA novel. It had just come out in 2023. So I got that, and then I was like overwhelmed with all the information out there, and I started to really freak out. And again, this was the perfectionism. And I was like, I don't think I can write this novel or this outline. I have no idea where to start. Um, and I just I didn't know how to take all the information I had learned and like put it all into something that could work. So that was when I decided I have to sign up for no snobble. Like, I just need someone kind of guiding me along one path. And there was one thing you had told me that helped a lot, and it was that um don't try to use like so many different plotting methods, and that helped significantly because I was over here like, oh, well, what's like the three-act structure and what save the cat? And I'm like trying to do all these different things, and that was just really overwhelming and it didn't work for me. So just doing notes in a novel helped me like pick one and then go forward from there.

SPEAKER_00: 10:46

Yeah, and it's something I talk about a lot because I am also a perfectionist and I was also in the same boat at one point where I was the person that would literally compare all the different methods and be like, well, this one says the inside against it ends at 12% and this one says 10%. And I would get really overwhelmed, like, well, which one's right? What should I do? So yeah, I always talk about like one method, doesn't have to be the notes to novel method, but just pick one and see it through to the end. So we're gonna come back to that idea because, like you said, that's what you did, but then you took notes to novel. And I remember there were calls during that like eight-week period where we were talking about perfectionism stuff. And so it was coming up even as you were working through things with a process. And then, like you said, you had a cut bait date, which is something we talk about in the course. Like you can't outline forever at some point. You don't know what you don't know, so you need to start writing. So you had a cut bait date of, I think it was the end of year or early January of the next year. And then what's funny to me is that A, you had done all this like foundational work, so you were set up to actually write a book. But then also I know that your like perfectionism tendencies and your type A a little bit helped you write that book in under 90 days. So like the overwhelm was gone, and then you took all the things that make you efficient and good at your work and you know, responsible human, and you put that to your book and you finished, which is amazing.

SPEAKER_01: 12:05

Yeah, absolutely. I um I am a person of structure. I plan out every hour of my day, and I know that sounds crazy to a lot of people. Um, my husband still has to like deal with that, um, but he's he understands that I have to do this now. Um, but it's it's basically how I handle like my own stress, or else I will get overwhelmed with everything that I have to do. So if I can at least structure and say, okay, you don't have to worry about five tasks right now because we're only doing one task now, and then task two, you'll do it this time. Yeah, or task three, you'll do like tomorrow, that helps me feel a lot more relaxed. Um, and then I can focus on actually getting something done instead of just being so overwhelmed and stressing out about how am I going to get all of this done. Um, so that's essentially what I did. As soon as I started writing, basically the first day that I wrote, which was January 1st of 2024, I got an idea of how fast I could write and how far I could get in terms of like how many scenes I could write in a certain amount of time. So I then used that to say, okay, well, this week after work, I have this many hours like free. You know, if I start writing at like nine o'clock every night, I can write like two hours a night, right? Before I go to bed at 11. And so that's what I kind of did. And I was like, okay, well, that means that I can get through like a scene here and a scene there. And I planned out when I was gonna write everything. And then once I actually started writing more, I got a lot faster. So my original goal was to be done in six months. And then I realized I was going way too fast for that. So then I set a goal of, okay, can I finish the first half by the end of January? And I think I did, but then I went on vacation in February. So I didn't do anything when I was on vacation. I was gone for like 10 days. So when I came back, I was like, okay, like January was kind of rough. Like I really didn't give myself any downtime. And we're talking like weekends where I was, it was like I I was still working full time on the weekends too. Like I would just sit at my desk and I would write and I wouldn't move for like six, seven hours, which is not good. I don't actually recommend that. Yeah. But when I came back from my vacation, I slow things down a little bit. So I took longer than a month to actually finish the second half. Um, but I managed to finish before March 31st.

SPEAKER_00: 14:26

Yeah, which is so exciting. And I don't know if you want to talk about this, but you also have a chronic illness, right? Yes. And how did that factor into a just kind of like protecting your energy? And then B, knowing that this could kind of flare up at any time. Did you have to deal with that? Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01: 14:42

That came into play a lot. So I have endometriosis and some other issues too, um, that are all kind of related to the endometriosis. It's sort of like a, I don't know, the cause of like multiple different things. And for me, my endometriosis got really bad end of 2022, going into 2023. So that perfectly lines up with my timeline of me deciding, hey, I kind of want to write a book. And the reason for that was that when I was really struggling with my endo, there was a lot that I just couldn't do because I'd be in pain all the time. So I would read a lot to distract myself. And then I felt like I had to give up a lot of things that I used to do before. And I felt like kind of purposeless. So that was how I decided I want to write a book because writing is a pretty accessible thing, at least for someone like me with my chronic pain. Like I can get comfortable writing. I don't have to write a certain amount every single day. Like I'm not right now, I'm I'm not on a deadline or anything. So that's how I started to get into it. And then when I was actually writing, I think I was the first month, like January, I was kind of running on adrenaline. So I wasn't feeling or I wasn't like in tune with what was going on in my body. And then I went on vacation and it was a pretty active trip. So when I came back, I actually really did not feel well. Um when I was on my trip itself, I actually had a bit of a breakdown where I was like, I'm in pain, I am tired, I I'm having a really hard time getting through this. Um, and I had to pull it back for the rest of my trip. And so when I came back, that's when I was like, I can't do this anymore. I'm I'm kind of running myself into the ground. Yeah. And I still have to deal with it now. There have definitely been times where if I have like a big flare-up and that can last like a month or two months, sometimes I just put everything aside. Yeah. Um, but then when I'm feeling good, I then use those moments to write as much as I can or do as much as I can because I don't know when the next time is that I'm gonna be out of commission.

SPEAKER_00: 16:43

Yeah. And I love how you described it as kind of you were running on adrenaline in January because that's what it feels like. You're like, I'm finally making progress. This feels good. And then I'm so glad that you did go on the vacation, then realize, okay, this is not sustainable. And even slowing down, you still had this like amazing result. So that's one thing I wanted to highlight. The other thing is that you had done so much work on your outline that when you do have flare-ups, you can almost feel like, yeah, it's not ideal to drop your writing, but you can know that you can safely come back to it because you have that outline.

SPEAKER_01: 17:15

Yes. Without an outline, I definitely would not have finished the book. But it's nice when the outline's actually done because then it's really just doing. It's it's doing the actual writing and there's not really any planning left to do. And without having that planning as a roadblock or, you know, trying to figure out world building or what do we do in this scene? Where do we start here? That type of stuff. It I feel like it makes it so much easier to write. Like you don't, I, I personally didn't have as many barriers as I was writing. And I never ran into writer's block when I wrote um the first book. Even now, like I think the hardest, one of the hardest things for me is outlining. And I'm I've been really struggling to outline book two right now because I'm trying to get it all perfect. And this is the part where I'm running into all those barriers where I'm like, well, how do I get this to work? And where should she be in this scene and so on? But I know that once I get that outline done, the writing's gonna be the easy part.

SPEAKER_00: 18:13

Yeah. And it's interesting as an outside observer to your journey. The first book, when you had your outline, you were asking very different questions than your outline for book two. So it's kind of like in the beginning, you were like, you know, everything's on the table. I don't really know. I can choose an infinity number of options. And now you kind of come to book two's outline and you're like, okay, I I know what's happening because I know my characters, I know my plot. You also have book one to go off of, but it's more like I can do these three options, and here's why I think I might want to do each. What do we think? You know? So it's it's fun to see you just like you're growing as a writer and asking these like next level questions, which opens the door for next level problems as well. Yes. But let's go back to a few things you said. So you were like, I used to edit as I wrote, and then when you're fast drafting like this, you don't really have time to edit as you write. You also said you haven't had an outline that kind of took maybe some of that pressure to edit as you wrote off. Um, but talk about, because I'm sure there are people that are listening, like, well, was your outline perfect and did nothing change? And was it just like smooth sailing? Talk about what it was actually like as a perfectionist writing the draft. Did things change? You know, what was that like?

SPEAKER_01: 19:26

Some things definitely did change, but not a ton. Um, there were what happened was there were a lot of things that I kind of made up on the fly. So the scene would take place in a certain location, and I would know which characters were involved and what they ended up having to do or say in order to kind of hit my goal for the scene. But when you're writing, you still have to fill in like all the extra. What's their actual conversation, right? They can't just say the words that you need them to say in the outline. Yeah. They have to have an actual conversation. And so it'd be like when I was writing stuff like that, that I would just suddenly come up with something. And there was one pretty major change that I made. Um I think this is the biggest change I made in the whole outline as I was writing. But when I got to um the scene right before my climax, there's a character who originally is supposed to just get hurt. And instead, as I was writing it, I was like, you know, this would be a lot more impactful if they died. And I had like a really big thing when I was making the outline, I was like, this is YA. You know, I need to keep this. Like, not so violent. I don't want this to like have a lot of death in it. But then as I got to that scene, I was like, it makes sense. I I need to do this. And I hadn't, I didn't know in the moment what that would mean for the whole story, if I'd have to go back and change anything. And also what that meant for the rest of the books in the series, because I want to write more books in the series. And I originally had it that this character would come back in the next book. So then I had I knew when I was writing this in the moment, I was like, oh no, this is gonna change stuff later. But I was like, I just have to do it. So I'm not saying that the outline was like the gold standard and I definitely stuck to it, but it's a very good starting point. And then when you're actually writing, sometimes you just have to make some changes.

SPEAKER_00: 21:24

Yeah. And I know that you use like the brackets, you use bullet points, you use things like that to kind of speed your way through maybe things you didn't quite know or things you were like, you know, I want to change this, and here are my notes and how I'm gonna change this. So I want listeners to hear that because it's not like you created this rigid outline that then you were like, I have ideas, but I have to follow the outline. You know, you let it be this really flexible, creative thing, and it worked for you, a recovering perfectionist. So it's so cool. Yes. Was there anything about going through that draft and that outline and the course in such a short amount of time that surprised you or that you like wish you knew a few years ago?

SPEAKER_01: 22:03

I was kind of surprised at how quickly I was able to get my outline done, even though I finished the course probably in like August or September of 2023, and I didn't finish my outline till December 31st. So I think for some people that might be a long time to come up with an outline, but for me, that felt like less than half the time I had already spent brainstorming and researching my novel. So that felt really quick to me. But I was shocked at how fast I could write. I literally had not written anything since I was in high school. And I mean, I'm sure I did some essays in high school, but even in college, like I was a finance major and a psych major, and I didn't do a lot of writing for those courses. And then I went straight into the corporate world right after I graduated. So for pretty much all of my 20s, I don't think I ever had to write anything beyond like professional emails. Yeah. I wasn't used to writing these like long blocks of text, and I couldn't believe how actually easy it was. Like that was the easiest thing in the this entire process was just sitting down and writing. I will say that the more I wrote, I think the better that I got at it. But I do just want to point out for anyone who might feel like you haven't written enough in your life or you don't have enough experience. Like I had no formal training or experience in writing at all. And I was still able to sit down and and write a whole book.

SPEAKER_00: 23:30

Yeah, and I do think that a lot of it goes back to the quality of your outline too, because that was almost like your first draft of your story. It was well thought out, it was pressure tested and all that stuff. But let's fast forward because now I'm just kind of thinking listeners are like, wow, this sounds amazing. You wrote this draft. What was the quality of that draft like? And I actually had the privilege of doing a developmental edit for Pornika. And I told her it was one of the best first drafts I had ever read. And I've been doing this for over 10 years. So, A, how did you feel about the draft when you finish it? B, how did you feel getting that feedback? Did you think I was lying?

SPEAKER_01: 24:07

I um I still think about it to this day. I almost cried, I think, when I got off that call. It meant so much for me. I remember telling my husband, and my husband was like, Yeah, of course. Like he was happy for me. But yeah, I know he's like my biggest supporter, and he had already read some of my stuff, and he was like, of course it's one of the best. But I remember telling my parents, and I don't think I kept my parents that updated on my whole journey because I was kind of afraid to tell anyone in my life that I was working on this. Because what if, what if I didn't finish it? And what if it just went nowhere? What if I wrote something and it was terrible? So there were very few people in my life I was telling about this, but I remember telling my parents um that you'd given me that feedback, and they were like, wow. Like my dad was like, You're gonna become this big author, and like you're gonna, you're just you're gonna become famous, everyone's gonna know you. And I was like, I just can't believe I got this feedback. So how did you feel about your draft like going into that developmental edit? I felt decent about it, honestly. Um, I knew that there were still things I had to fix, but one thing that I was really struggling with was like I was too in the weed. So I had no idea, I knew things had to change. I just didn't know what had to change. I don't know if I ever felt like a certain way about like it was good or it was bad overall. I just knew it's not done yet. And I guess it's me being like kind of the perfectionist. I'm like, I just want to get this done, I just want it to be perfect. So that was why I reached out to you because I was like, I've just been hitting a wall for like two months where I'm trying to look at this and edit it, and I just I can't see this from like sort of an outside perspective. Um, and that's what I realized I needed was someone who had not read it before to give me their feedback.

SPEAKER_00: 25:49

Yeah. And I think like even though you're saying it, it's not perfect or anything, when you read it, I think you tell me if I'm wrong, but I think you thought, wow, this is a story. I actually wrote a story. It feels like yes.

SPEAKER_01: 26:00

Yeah. And that I had that moment, like as soon as I finished it, I was like, I can't believe I actually finished this. And it's like a normal length, right? I didn't just finish, like, I don't know, I think back to like high school and I wrote those hundred pages, right? I'm like, no, this is like four times that. Like I wrote a lot more than that, and it has like a beginning, a middle, and end that hit all the key scenes, and I couldn't believe that it was a true story. And like from that moment on, if I wanted to just like publish out, I could have. I knew it wasn't perfect, but yeah, I was just really proud of myself for doing that.

SPEAKER_00: 26:34

Yeah, and it was so cool to read because literally we had talked through that whole thing from what your ideas were to pressure testing your outline and all of that. So to see it all come to fruition was super cool. But so the biggest problem, there were, you know, a lot of things that we talked through that you could tweak, but one of the biggest things was like we knew the word count was probably too high at 114,000. So kind of on our checklist of things to do through the edit was how do we get the word count down while not really messing too much with the story because everything did warrant its place. And I remember something that you had talked about in the story lab membership, which is for notes to novel graduates. You had been telling people, like, I've been ruthless with editing this because I'm making sure every scene touches the character development and the plot development. You want to talk about that a little bit, actually?

SPEAKER_01: 27:23

Yeah. Um, I had this one day, I think it was after I got the developmental edit feedback from you. And I remember I got your feedback right before I went on another trip. Yeah. And I just remember being on this train from London to Edinburgh, and I was just going through all of your feedback and trying to figure out like how to use all of it. And when I got back from that trip, I sat down with my husband and I said, okay, I need again, like an outside perspective. I need you to tell me. I'm gonna go through every single scene. I need you to tell me, like, does this make sense? Do you feel like this relates to the global story? Or do you think this is kind of like just fluff that I'm putting in there? Because at that point I was attached to scenes. And it's like, I might look at something and say, this is very important, but really it's just, I just really like it. And it might not actually be that critical to the story. So when I sat down and had that like session with my husband, that helped significantly. And it really shifted my perspective on um how I would kind of work on my outline going forward. And I was able to at least do that with my outline for book two. So I feel like I'm already kind of overcoming some of the pitfalls that I have with book one.

SPEAKER_00: 28:30

Yeah. Which is so fun. So usually I like to kind of highlight things like, oh, we had to fix this with your character or whatever. But your story actually really worked. And at that point, it was more like, here's how we could kind of enhance what you already have. Here's how we could tighten things, layer things. But your character work was great, your plot work was great, your world building was great. I know we talked a little bit about like maybe where to start the story and things like that. But long story short, you went through the edits and I think you did that relatively quick as well. And then you went to beta readers who had a great response to your story. And how was that to get outside feedback other than me and your husband? Because I know that's like a little echo chamber, right?

SPEAKER_01: 29:11

That was that was really cool. When I got it, I'm again the perfectionist. So I obviously zoomed in on all of the criticism. And there were some things that I was a little bit like not upset about, but just like, dang, you know, I I wish I had taken the time to fix this before I'd even sent it to them. But I mean, that's also what beta readers are for. Uh, but there were, there was quite a bit of feedback in there that I was so excited about. Um, one of the beta readers, actually, two of the beta readers were women of color, like myself. And one of them had said that there's there's a scene in my book where the main character has like an honest conversation with her best friend from home about how she's been very insecure about her race and how she's been really like hiding things and always trying to kind of assimilate throughout her life. And this beta reader said that it really resonated with her. And that meant the world to me because I loved that scene, but I was really worried that it wouldn't resonate with readers. So to get that kind of feedback, it was like, wow, like this is what why I'm writing. This is what I'm trying to accomplish here. And that was really cool.

SPEAKER_00: 30:20

Yeah. And it resonated with the right reader, which I think is an important lesson. And then this is where it starts to like get really fun because you signed up for various conferences and things along the way and started pitching just whenever you had an opportunity, even though you weren't quite all the way done, which I'm sure was a little scary. But how was that?

SPEAKER_01: 30:39

So I started querying agents before I was all the way done trimming my words. Um, so I had it in a spot where it was good enough to send out, but I knew that I still needed to cut words. So even though I was sending out queries, I was like, well, no one's gonna request my story like in at least the next month, so I can spend the next month trimming it down. And I just basically kept trimming whenever I could in um the spring, like early 2025. And then in May, I by then I'd gotten a full request from an agent, but I felt like I could do more. Like I felt like I wasn't getting enough responses from agents and I wasn't really sure what else I could be doing. So in May, I just spent like a week doing some like huge cuts, like taking scenes out and just trying to get it as trimmed down as possible. And I got it to 99,000 words, which that was my goal, was to get it under 100K. And once I got it there, then I started querying like my kind of big time agents, like the agents that were really high up on my list that I was too afraid to query in the beginning when I had the higher word count.

SPEAKER_00: 31:48

Yeah, because you knew the word count was going to be an issue. And I remember we kind of had this talk at one point of like, let's just see what happens. Because, you know, with YA and especially with fantasy, sometimes we do get away with a little higher word count. But we kind of both were like, yeah, it should be under 100. We'll see what happens. So then you got it under 100. And I remember like that was so hard because everything technically worked, but because it's your debut, we wanted it under a hundred. So then at some point you had like multiple people interested. What did that feel like? I mean, and this is like in the span of years since starting and getting to this point. What did that feel like?

SPEAKER_01: 32:24

Yeah, it was insane. So I had two full requests when my word count was the original word count, which was 110. That's what I queried with in the beginning. Um, so as I was doing the word cut, I got two full requests. I think the one that I'd gotten before that was actually a partial that turned into a full in May. But then after I did the word cut, I went to a writing conference. It was a virtual writing conference, and I signed up for three agent pitches. And one of them just said, hey, query me. One of them said I had already queried her, and she was like, I'll move this to the top of my pile and get back to you. And a week later, that turned into a flow request. And then the third one just gave me a full request on the spot. Said, send me your manuscript right now. So in total, I had the two from May and then um two from that pitch event. And then by end of August, one of the flow requests I gotten back in May turned into an offer of rep. And then after I had the offer of rep, I then had three more full requests. So in total, seven full requests.

SPEAKER_00: 33:29

Seven. Seven full requests total and one offer of rep at this point. Okay. And so how many queries did you send out total? 50.

SPEAKER_01: 33:37

And then this is where it gets weird. When I got my offer rep, by then I'd sent out 50. And I thought that was like the perfect number. Um, especially as a data person, I was like, oh, I can just do all mine in percents so easily if I want to see like the percent of requests I got. But that week, right after I got the offer rep, I posted on my story on my Instagram account, because I have a like a public writing account. And an agent who I was not like I had not queried her. I didn't even know who she was. She reached out to me on Instagram. She just DMed me and said, Hey, I know that you have an offer, but if you haven't made your decision yet, I'd really like to consider this. And so that was one of my full requests. So I got that without technically querying her. So I still include that in the batch. So it's really 51 total agents. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 34:28

Which is amazing, by the way. That's like one of those stories that you hear about, and you're like, I can't believe that happened to somebody. But okay, so you have seven full requests, and then you have one offer of representation. And then what happened from there? So it was kind of bittersweet, actually.

SPEAKER_01: 34:43

Um, so I got the three full requests after I got my offer of rep. And then I went on this big trip. I don't know why I keep traveling to program these big points in my life, but I went on this big international trip and I had I reached out to all these agents ahead of time who um had my full manuscript and I said, Hey, I'm my internet's gonna be not so great the next like 10 days, but you can still email me. So while I was on my trip, I just kept refreshing my inbox every single day, like looking for their responses, and a lot of them would come overnight because of the time difference. Yeah. And I got quite a few rejections. Like something that I think I was expecting based on what I'd seen online is that once you get an offer rep and you nudge everyone, you get responses really fast and you can get more full requests, and sometimes you get more offers. But what I hadn't considered is you also get a ton of rejections. They just come in back to back to back, and it's pretty jarring. Like it's that was the hardest part, I think, of the whole querying process was actually getting some some of those rejections back to back, and especially when I had an offer on the table. So it's like, you know, you feel really like high up and really good about yourself, and then all of a sudden you're like, oh, all of these people hate my work, and they don't actually hate your work, but that's kind of what it feels like.

SPEAKER_00: 35:56

And you're not at home, which makes it worse too. Right. Yeah. And it's hard because when you nudge, you don't know why they're saying no unless they tell you. So it could be something like, I just don't have the budget for this kind of book in this quarter or whatever, or it could be I read it and I don't like it, or it's not a fit for me, right? So there it could literally be anything and we interpret it as my book sucks, I'm terrible.

SPEAKER_01: 36:19

Yes. Most of the responses are just congratulations on your offer. I will be like withdrawing or something. Yeah. Um, so that was that was a bummer. But there was there was one agent who was one of the agents that I had pitched at that writer's conference, and I thought I could be like I thought they could be a really good fit with me. And I had nudged her and she said that she would, you know, make sure that she finished the full manuscript, like finished reading it, and would give me a decision before the deadline, which was after my trip. But about halfway through my trip, I actually got the response from her and it was a rejection. It was a personalized rejection, but it was still it that one hurt the most out of all of them. I think it's really hard when you get so far, and now someone actually has your entire book and then they say no, because then you're like, wow, I really thought this would actually turn into something.

SPEAKER_00: 37:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 37:11

Um, I felt like I didn't really get my hopes up with a lot of agents when I just cold queried them. But to have met her at the conference and pitched to her in person or face to face, I just felt like I had a really good shot with her. And so that was the most difficult rejection that I had to face in the entire querying process. But really, like the next few days after that, I kind of just told myself like it just wasn't meant to be. And it doesn't necessarily mean that my writing was bad, but one thing that the agent had said was that she actually had a lot of other YA fantasy authors, and she was hoping that mine would be a little more crossover into new adult so that I wouldn't overlap with her other authors. But then when she read it, she realized it was pretty YA. So it really has nothing to do with me or my writing, and it was kind of out of my hands. But you know, it's still it still hurts to get something like that.

SPEAKER_00: 37:59

Totally. Especially like you said, you had you kind of had your hopes up. That's very natural that we feel that way, you know. And then it's kind of like one no after another is really hard. And throughout all of this, too, we had been reworking your query, which was a whole other can of worms because it's like you knew that some things were working, some things weren't. So we were kind of going back and trying different angles and things like that. But then, like, fast forward to what was it like when you did the call with your now agent?

SPEAKER_01: 38:27

It was awesome. I couldn't believe it was happening. Um, I actually happened to film my reaction when I got the email from that agent. Um, I'd been waiting for a response from them for a while because they had uh given me the full request in May. And then I did actually send them the updated draft with the 99,000 words. So I was just kind of waiting. And I at this point I was waiting so long that I was like, oh, I don't know if it's gonna amount to anything. So when I saw the email in my inbox, I didn't even open it, but I just like popped up my phone and I was like, you know what? I'm gonna just film this. And if it's bad, I maybe I won't post it. Or maybe I will, and I'll just show people what like what it feels like to get a rejection.

SPEAKER_00: 39:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 39:08

Uh, and it was really cool because it ended up saying, you know, I loved your book and I want to have an a call to discuss representation. And that was a really cool moment. That's probably like my best, like my best post on social media. Um, it's gotten like the most views and everything, and I think that's really cool because it was a genuine reaction. But when I had the call, it was the next day, and I was actually really surprised at how quickly it happened. Like I told them that I was going on this trip and I'd be leaving in a few days, and they were like, Well, how's tomorrow? And I was kind of thrown off by how quickly they wanted to move. Um, so I had the call, it was really, really cool. We talked for it, must have been an hour and a half. Um it was it was like pretty late when I got off the call, but it was so exciting hearing someone who I've never met before gush about my my story and not just like the concept of it, but actually saying things about the characters and specific things that happened, like conversations that happened. That was wild. It was so, so, so cool to talk to someone who just had a lot of passion for my book. Yeah. Um, and someone who's like a real professional in this world, right? Like that was really, really cool. So it was it was really neat. I when I went left for my trip, I was just like kind of on cloud nine. Like I was like, oh my gosh, like my book is great. And yeah, it felt like everything I'd kind of done for the last over a year, like a couple of years, just really felt worth it.

SPEAKER_00: 40:35

Yeah. And I know that this uh this age. That you signed with was kind of one of the ones on your A list, right? Like you really wanted to work with them, so it worked out pretty darn great.

SPEAKER_01: 40:44

Yeah, yeah. I um I felt like we were a really good fit. Like when I read everything that they were looking for, their manuscript wish list, I was like, wow, this could this could work really, really well. So that was exciting too, that it was at least an agent who I was really interested in and happy with. Yeah. Um, but one thing I do also want to point out is that when I got the offer, I was so convinced that I was going to nudge all these other agents, I would get more full requests, which I did. And then I was convinced I would get at least another offer because everything I ever saw on like social media of other authors doing this is that they always got another offer rep. And what I think actually happens is that not everyone gets multiple offers of rep. They just don't post it if they don't get multiple offers, right? But I was convinced that that was the way it's supposed to be. And I actually had one agent who went all the way up until the deadline that I'd given them. And then on that day said, I'm sorry, I can't commit time to reading your full manuscript. So I'm gonna have to withdraw. And it was a weird feeling because I was like, but I'm supposed to have multiple offers. I'm supposed to like make a decision. It's like applying to college. Like you want to get into multiple places so you can decide between them. So I that was something I really had to come to terms with is that I had an offer from an agent who I really, really liked, who I thought would be a really good fit. And when we had the call, I could tell that they were really passionate about my book. And I might not have gotten another offer or rep, but that didn't make me any less of a writer in any way.

SPEAKER_00: 42:11

Yeah. And that's still like the dream scenario for so many people. So I think you're right to call this out that it's something we see and it's very glamorized that your inbox pings with offer after offer after you nudge everybody. And, you know, like just even outside of your story, I've seen this happen to other people too, where maybe it's one offer of representation and maybe that person's not the right fit. So they keep querying or whatever. Or it happens to work out like it did for you, where you're like, actually, I really love this person. And even though it didn't come kind of happen the way I thought, I'm really happy with this and this feels good. So I think that is a good point to make it more normal that not everyone's getting multiple, multiple offers. But that's a lot for what, two, three years? That's like a whirlwind of writing stuff.

SPEAKER_01: 42:57

Yes, it really is. And I'm hoping we continue on this path. Um, I've been in revisions right now with my agent, which is actually really fun to go back into the story. Yeah. Um, while I was querying, I was kind of working on my outline for book two, but I stopped like looking at book one. Like once I did that big word cut in May, I didn't really look at book one again. And then when I had my first real call with my agent, like after we signed and I had a call just to talk about like revisions, there were things that they were bringing up that I was like, I don't remember this. Like it was it was bad. I was like, I can't even remember where this scene is or where this conversation is. So I actually made myself read the entire thing all the way through before I started doing revisions, and that helped a lot. But it also was really cool because like now doing all these revisions, it's like I'm looking at it with fresh eyes. So all of the things that before I felt like I was too in the weeds with, like, I don't have that anymore. And I'm I'm able to really look at something and say, you know what? Like, I can just cut this whole paragraph. Like there's just no need for this. Or yeah, this scene's really, really cool. I'm definitely gonna keep this. Like I can kind of tell better now what works and what doesn't.

SPEAKER_00: 44:12

Yeah, that's the power of taking some time away. Um, but I haven't asked you this yet. How you don't have to go into a lot of detail, but are your revisions big? Are they small? Like, what kinds of things are you working on? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 44:23

My agent actually said at our first call, they were like, there are gonna be some extensive edits. And I was like, oh no. Um, but to be honest, I haven't really thought that any of them are that extensive. I haven't had to get rid of characters, I haven't had to like change my plot that significantly. Really, some of the biggest things were just kind of tightening up the pacing. I think that was like the biggest priority that I had in my first round of revisions. So it was a lot of just trimming things down that are unnecessary. Um, right now in this second round of revisions, I'm just working on like trimming down long blocks of text or long descriptions and unnecessary dialogue tags. So it's not anything that like really affects the actual story or plot at all. Yeah. And then the next round is gonna be line edits, and then we're gonna hopefully be ready to go on sub in the new year.

SPEAKER_00: 45:15

That's so exciting. So, I mean, that's probably pretty encouraging for people listening because they're like, you wrote this book and it was from the get-go, it worked, and it just needed tightening and tightening and tightening and like polishing. Because I know a lot of people get nervous. They're like, if I write something that works and I love it, are people gonna make me change it? And it's like, not necessarily. So that's really cool. But I mean, congratulations on everything because your story, it like everything happens so fast and it's so cool. If you were looking back and maybe talking to someone that was where you were three years ago, what advice would you give to someone like that? Or if you were talking to yourself three years ago?

SPEAKER_01: 45:53

If I were talking to myself three years ago, I would say, don't give up. I know that's really cliche, but even in those times where you feel like a huge imposter where you're like, I'm I'm not doing what everyone else is doing, or I'm never going to actually get published and see my book on a shelf one day, I would say just keep working, like just keep moving forward. There are, especially as a perfectionist, there are a lot of times where I feel like everything has to be all or nothing. So if I can't commit to like two to three hours today to work on my story, then I'm not gonna work on it at all. But I've like met a lot of people through social media who are also writers, and a lot of them just do like a 15-minute, 20-minute writing sprint. And like right now, as I'm working through the second round of revisions with my agent, I've been spending like no more than an hour a day on them. And that's just something that I need to do with my schedule and my health right now. But it makes a difference when you really add it all up. And if you're continuing to move forward, eventually you'll feel like you're making progress and that will continue to motivate you. Whereas if you just kind of let everything go completely, it's so hard to get back into it.

SPEAKER_00: 47:07

Yeah. And I think what you said about that black and white all or nothing thinking is really important because I'm guilty of that as well. It's like if you don't have the perfect circumstances or the perfect plan, then what's the point? But the point is these small little bouts of work that actually move you forward. So I'm so glad you said that. But any last parting words of wisdom, Pornika?

SPEAKER_01: 47:26

Um, I just hope that for everyone who's listening to this, if you're writing a book, um, or if you're querying, just know that you will get there and you can accomplish really big things and you don't need to be this like acclaimed, well-known author to do it. Um, I really came in here just with no formal writing experience, no, no like degree or anything like that in writing. Um, and I just kind of sat down and started working on it and I got off this far. And it's it's really cool. It still doesn't feel real most days. So um, I just want to tell everyone that like even if you think you can't do it, you really can. You really can.

SPEAKER_00: 48:05

I love that. And it's so funny, you're right. Like, it takes a while for it to feel real and sink in. Um, but we'll link to where people can find you around the internet. Is there like one main place you'd want to send everybody?

SPEAKER_01: 48:16

Yeah, um, my TikTok is what I use primarily, and that's my full name. I think it's at Pornika.cakanaya. But I also have my Instagram as well. It's the same handle. So either one works.

SPEAKER_00: 48:27

Perfect. So we'll link to both. And then I would encourage listeners if Pornika's story inspired you, go say hi to her on social media. But thank you so much, uh, Pornika. And I'm so excited to see what 2026 will bring. Because, like you said, hopefully you'll be out in submission, you'll be working on book two. So we'll have to have you back to get an update at some point.

SPEAKER_01: 48:46

I can't wait. Thanks so much for having me.

SPEAKER_00: 48:50

All right, so that's it for this episode of the Fiction Writing Made Easy Podcast. Head over to savannaGilbo.com forward slash podcast for the complete show notes, including the resources I mentioned today, as well as bonus materials to help you implement what you've learned. And if you're ready to get more personalized guidance for your specific writing stage, whether you're just starting out, stuck somewhere in the middle of a draft, drowning in revisions, or getting ready to publish, take my free 30-second quiz at savanagilbo.com forward slash quiz. You'll get a customized podcast playlist that'll meet you right where you're at and help you get to your next big milestone. Last but not least, make sure to follow this podcast in your podcast player of choice because I'll be back next week with another episode full of actionable tips, tools, and strategies to help you become a better writer. Until then, happy writing.