SPEAKER_01: 0:00

But if you want to write genre fiction, have a commercially successful story, readers have come to expect certain things. And this has started the beginning of the time. The very first stories have these. And it has not changed. There's all different ways we can describe these things. There's different words used, there's different levels of depth, but the fundamental structure is there. And so I think that all writers should have the opportunity to know what this is and then use it for their writing if they choose to do so or they know it and then branch off from there into something new and wonderful that becomes a new pattern.

SPEAKER_00: 0:38

Welcome to the Fiction Writing Made Easy Podcast. My name is Savannah Gilbo, and I'm here to help you write a story that works. I want to prove to you that writing a novel doesn't have to be overwhelming. So each week I'll bring you a brand new episode with simple, actionable, and step-by-step strategies that you can implement in your writing right away. So whether you're brand new to writing or more of a seasoned author looking to improve your craft, this podcast is for you. So pick up a pen and let's get started. In today's episode, I have a very special guest joining me. Her name is Christina Stanley, and she is an award-winning author, fiction editor, and the founder and CEO of Fictionary, an incredible software designed to help creative writers improve the plot, characters, and settings of their novels. And in this episode, Christina and I are diving deep into the five structural scenes that make up the backbone of every great story. We're going to talk about why these scenes are so important, how they align with the three-act structure, and how you can use them to create a story that's both compelling and cohesive. So whether you're in the middle of drafting knee deep in revisions or just starting to outline your novel, this episode is packed with actionable tips to help you move forward with clarity and confidence. So without further ado, let's dive right into my conversation with Christina Stanley. Hi, Christina. Welcome to the Fiction Writing Made Easy Podcast. Hi, Sylvanna. Thanks for hosting today. Super excited to be here to talk about story structure, my favorite, favorite, favorite topic. I'm excited too. So, Christina, can you kick us off by giving a little introduction of who you are and what you do?

SPEAKER_01: 2:11

Sure. Yeah. So I'm a fiction writer. I'm a instructional editor. I run a company called Fictionary. We have the Fictionary School for Writers and Editors. And our goal is basically to help writers tell a great story. That's it.

SPEAKER_00: 2:27

Yeah. And you guys have a lot of great programs and freebies and all that kind of stuff. So we will link to all that in the show notes. But what draws you to story structure or like why is this the thing you're so nerdy about?

SPEAKER_01: 2:38

So, okay, so obviously I love to read. I've grown up reading. It's a thing, I'm sure it is with most writers. You love to read. And I got interested in story structure when I started really thinking about how to put a book together. And when I was writing before I was editing, before fictionary as a company, and I like patterns. And when you start to see patterns in a story, you're like, oh, that's in this story. Well, that's in this story. Well, that's in this story and in the same location. Huh. What is that about? And so it's just mind-candy of like to see it. And once you see it, you can't unsee it. Like it's just there. And every book you read, you're like, oh, there's this. There's this. And you start to see the different genres have different patterns. You know, even between a mystery and a thriller, the patterns are different. It's and so I don't know. I just find it very exciting, interesting. I I have a my my background, I have a degree in in um computer mathematics. So I I like, I just like structure.

SPEAKER_00: 3:36

Yeah. I love that you said mind candy because that's exactly how it feels to me. I also love the patterns. I love seeing like the why behind the patterns and figuring that out. And then also being able to share it with other people, which is kind of what we both do for a living. So yes, I think that's super cool. But what we're gonna talk about is like the five key scenes. So these make up the spine or the backbone of the story. Why do we start here?

SPEAKER_01: 3:59

So I believe that you can write anything you want. That's great. But if you want to write genre fiction, have a commercially successful story, readers have come to expect certain things. And this has started the beginning of the time. The very first stories have these, and it has not changed. There's all different ways we can describe these things. There's different words used, there's different levels of depth, but the fundamental structure is there. And so I think that all writers should have the opportunity to know what this is and then use it for their writing if they choose to do so, or they know it and then branch off from there into something new and wonderful that becomes a new pattern.

SPEAKER_00: 4:40

Yeah. So why don't you give us an overview of the five scenes and then we'll dive into each one of them a little bit?

SPEAKER_01: 4:46

Okay, so I'll give people a chance to take notes. So scene number one is the inciting incident. And I'll talk through the details behind these at the end. But so we have scene number one, the inciting incident. Scene number two is plot point one, scene number three is the middle plot point, scene number four is plot point two, and the climax is the fifth scene. So we have five scenes. Act one goes from your very first page up to plot point one, act two is the biggie, and it goes from plot point one to plot point two, which is basically 50% of the story. And then act three starts at plot point two and goes to the very end of your book, your last word. And those boundaries are hold them loosely. Your your plot point two, it could end act two or start act three. It doesn't matter where on that line it sits, they're generally just in those places.

SPEAKER_00: 5:38

Yeah, but let's start with number one. So that was the exciting incident. I know that people are gonna be like, I'm taking notes. Where does this thing happen? Tell me all about it.

SPEAKER_01: 5:46

All right. So the inciting incident, all this is it's a shakeup to the protagonist's world. So something changes. And so if we think of a romance novel, it's when the characters meet. If they don't meet, there's no romance. It's just when they meet. That's it. A mystery, either it's a detective accepting the case, or they find a dead body, or somebody's killed. Somewhere in there, it has a bit more variety than a romance. And so what we're looking for is something early in the novel. It could happen before the novel, even. And it needs to happen no later than 10 to 15 percent. And the reason for that is if you're reading about a character's ordinary world, which we want, we want to know who is this character before we get engaged. If they don't do anything different for too long, it's dull. People go, well, what's happening in this story? There needs to be an inciting incident either before the story starts. Fourth Wing is a beautiful example of that, where Violet, who's the main character, her mother orders her to go from working in a library to dragon college. Boom. And she has to do it. And she has six months to get ready. So she's a little Miss Book Reader. You know, I'm gonna ride dragons. That's her insight, her world has changed. Before the book starts, it's told in backstory, an early backstory. So, same rule early in the book. Right.

SPEAKER_00: 7:08

And something where I see writers go wrong when they create an inciting incident, there's a few things, but one of them is it's something that's kind of expected. So it's like they'll say, Well, my character's about to start college. Let's pretend it's dragon college, and they've known that they're going to college in the fall. And so then they say, Well, the inciting incident is day one of college. It's what kicks off the journey. So, what would you say to a writer in that scenario?

SPEAKER_01: 7:32

So, think about fourth wing. The reason it works is yes, she was gonna go to college, knew that, absolutely, except the change is she's not going to become a scribe and work in a library and study her whole life. She's gonna go and ride dragons. And so it's a complete shock to the protagonist and what that means: stress, conflict, they don't know how to deal with it, they've got to figure it out, they're resisting it, all of the good stuff. And it also gives us empathy for the character, like, oh, that's hard, right? You want to see how are they gonna handle this, this new thing, not I've studied my entire life for my math degree and I'm going to my math college. Right.

SPEAKER_00: 8:15

Because one is definitely more exciting than the other. And so I think that's a key part is having it be unexpected and also, you know, what you said is key. There we're getting us into conflict, we're getting us into the interesting part. So for listeners, we'll just keep that in mind. Um, the other thing I hear people ask is like, why does it happen in the 10 to 15% or before that mark? And you explain that like we're we're building up to something. Uh so I think that's great. And then it's kind of like we see, well, what happens after this, right? So this thing has shaken up our world, and then where are we headed?

SPEAKER_01: 8:46

Right. So then we get to plot point one. So when you're looking at your story as a writer, the the best thing you can do for yourself early on, and this is just for you, nobody ever has to read it. Who's the protagonist? Who's this story about? What's their goal? So a murder mystery is to solve the murder. So high-level goal, what's their goal? And what's at stake if they don't? So the murderer goes free, they kill somebody else, there's something bad is going to happen. And so then you know exactly what plot point one is. It is just the protagonist accepting the story goal. The detective takes on the case. One of the romance writers, romance writers, one of the love interests in a romance book is going to be attracted to the other person. If neither are attracted, they just leave the story. But one of them, sometimes both, will be attracted. Fantasy, usually at this point, the protagonist is accepting that the supernatural exists in their world and they're going to use it to achieve their story goal. So it has a little twist too.

SPEAKER_00: 9:48

Yeah. And I love how you're saying they're flavored per genre. Because I think a lot of people get overwhelmed with all the different threads they'll have in their story. So this is something I see sometimes where I'll be editing a draft and the inciting incident might be like the lovers meet. And then by the first plot point, it's like we're committing to solving the crime. And it's like, okay, but wait, what kind of story are we reading? So I like that you're saying everything's flavored per genre, and you can really just start to say logically, X happened, now Y needs to happen. And it can be that simple.

SPEAKER_01: 10:18

Yes. And so there's plot point one. And so that happens around 25%. So that's the end of your act one. And now we're moving into the protagonist gonna try and achieve this story goal in a reactive way. Something's gonna happen and they're gonna, oh, I better do this, or oh, I better do that. And of course they're gonna fail. They'll have little successes here and there, and then they're gonna fail. You know, they're not gonna achieve their story goal because as soon as they do, the story's over.

SPEAKER_00: 10:44

Right. And can we talk about how like someone's internal obstacle or that wound or fear is playing into all of these plot points?

SPEAKER_01: 10:51

So in the internal wound, it's there and for a very specific reason. So you've got your little skeleton blurb that the protagonist must do something or something bad will happen. Their internal wound is gonna make it hard for them to achieve their story goal. So I want to be a megastar singer, except I have a fear of crowds. Okay. My internal thing is gonna be a problem for that. That's a very extreme example. But you want you want the internal goals to be there. And so when the inciting incident happens, yeah, if we look at Fourth Wing, where you know Violet's been told she has to uh go to that dragon school, she really doesn't want to hurt anybody ever. She's gotta overcome that. She has to learn to trust people, or she can't succeed by herself. It just won't work. And you can see these things play out stronger and stronger. So there's a hint of it early in the book. It comes out a bit in plot point one. By the middle point, there's a big decision she has to make where she has to trust someone that might actually want to kill her. Right. Right. Pretty scary stuff, adding tension and conflict. But the internal flaw gets in the way the whole way through. And then hopefully, somewhere between plot point two and the resolution, you got a big range here. The protagonist understands what their flaw is and what they're really trying to do and achieve. And it comes at the end. And then it's very satisfying to the reader.

SPEAKER_00: 12:21

Very satisfying, yes. And so I want to touch on that because we're about to talk about the middle plot point or the midpoint. And I know that this is where things start to kind of change with that wound sometimes. So talk us through the midpoint and how that uh relates to our internal obstacle. Yeah. So the midpoint is very interesting.

SPEAKER_01: 12:37

People always uh not uh always often have trouble with it. So it's 50% of your book, give or take, in that range somewhere. And between plot point one, where they've accepted the story goal, and by the way, if that's missing, they haven't accepted the story goal. There's no story. They're not doing anything. They're still now we're back in ordinary life. Something happened to shake them up and they went, I'm not gonna deal with that. Right. They have to accept the story goals. So that's why plot point one must must be in the story, or there just isn't a story.

SPEAKER_00: 13:08

And I have a feeling about that because sometimes writers will say, or they'll look at things like Harry Potter, for example, and they'll say, Well, he just goes to school. His goal is like not to go up against Voldemort and destroy the sorcerer's stone or something like that. So sometimes, like, I don't know if you've found this as well, but sometimes it's almost like you know that their actions are accepting the goal. I'm using air quotes. Yes, and they don't quite know that their actions are quote unquote accepting the goal.

SPEAKER_01: 13:36

Yes, and that's such a key point, right? The protagonist doesn't have to know it.

SPEAKER_00: 13:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 13:41

Doesn't have to know it. In Hunger Games, when Katniss accepts the series story goal, she doesn't know it. It's at the end of book one, spoiler alert, where her and PETA have survived and they go against the capital and and decide, well, if we have to kill each other, we're not, we're both gonna die. And so at that moment, the whole audience is what is watching. She's gonna become the leader of the revolution, she's gonna take down the capital. She doesn't know that she's accepted that serious goal that by the end of book three, that capital is done. Right. So it's it's beautifully written. If you want to see an example of that, go to the end of Hunger Games and you'll see how she's accepted the story goal without knowing it. But I'm gonna guess the author knew exactly, exactly what worth doing there.

SPEAKER_00: 14:27

I would guess so too. And that's what I always tell writers. It's like if you if it's not immediately obvious, like let's say at plot point one that they're accepting the goal, you need to be able to defend that yes, they are. They just don't consciously know it as well as other protagonists' might. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01: 14:42

And the goal is an interesting thing. If we talk about going across the book before the inciting incident, the goal can be, you know, I have to get to the restaurant to open my restaurant.

SPEAKER_00: 14:51

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 14:52

I got you know, you have to be doing something active. It does the scene goal doesn't need to be I have to solve the murder because they don't know the murder exists yet. But it has to be, you know, maybe the murder happens at the restaurant, and that's the link between the scene goals. And so as you go through the story, the scene goals are going to change and be appropriate to the place in the story. But the overall story goal is solve the murder, have a happily ever after, defeat the dragon.

SPEAKER_00: 15:19

Right. And it I think it gets sharper and sharper too as they find out more information, as the stakes become more personal and things like that. So that's another thing people always ask is like, well, can that goal change? And it's like, yes and no, right? Like, yes, the goal for you, the author, is to bring your couple together if you're writing a romance.

SPEAKER_01: 15:37

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 15:37

The goal for you, the author, is to get your protagonist against the antagonist if you're writing something like a fantasy story or whatever. Um, but their goal, like you said, might literally be open the restaurant. And then it's like, you know, two chapters later, there's a different goal, and we're bring being brought into this overarching story goal. Like, what would you say? I guess, let me give you a scenario. In a romance novel, the characters they meet at the inciting incident, what would their goals look like coming out of that? Like to get them to the point where their their goal is to get together.

SPEAKER_01: 16:07

Okay. So it's very so it depends on the romance and the internal goal. Or sorry, the internal flaw. So if you have a character that is very um, they're not confident, they don't think anyone could possibly love them for who they are. They might meet in the inciting instant and think, wow, you are fabulous, but oh, I'm at so I I just out of my league. I go, I have to get out of here before this hurts me more. I'm gonna run, right? Or their goal might be, no, wait, man, get out of my way. This person's for me. I'm going that direction. So the the the goal is often at that point determined by what's their internal flaw and what's their natural inclination going to be based on that flaw. Or maybe they have a really strong personality trait. And so I'll go back to Fourth Wing where Violet has worked hard her whole life and studied hard and learned and learned and learned. And so her natural inclination is okay, she's she's accepting the story goal, but she's doing it in a way that she has to use her intelligence to achieve this. So she uses a character trait to help herself in her goal attempts, and that brings her through.

SPEAKER_00: 17:23

So that flaw is really important, or a strong character trait that's gonna which is why doing character work before we get to the plot is so important, I think. Um, but what you said brings us nicely back to kind of the middle of the story because using Violet as an example, she's kind of going about things the quote unquote wrong way. She's using her strong trait of intelligence matters. I can find this in a book. I'm just gonna study and work my way through the writer's quadrant.

SPEAKER_01: 17:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 17:51

And then something happens, which is the midpoint.

SPEAKER_01: 17:55

Right. So she, if we look at um the inciting incidents before the story starts, her plot point one is when she she's in the school now. There's her main love interest, Zaiden, who she thinks just wants to kill her, and it's when she first sees the dragons. And she watches what's happening, and the dragons kill a whole bunch of cadets. So there's a lot of death in this book, right? It's a right, kind of a darker fantasy. A lot of yeah. In her plot point one, she makes a decision. All right, um, and her goal in her personal goal in plot or book one is just to survive. That's it, right? She she wants to like not die in her first year of cadet school. That's a pretty good goal. Very motivational, yeah, very relatable. And so she uses her intelligence in plot point one to watch what's happening and decides, all right, when this dragon comes to breathe on me, I'm not moving. And she's like the size of its nose, right? There it goes. And she holds. She doesn't die. So, okay, so that's her first hint. But right after that, she's like, oh, look how many people died today. Of course I'm gonna die today. She doesn't believe it yet, but it's it's there. In the middle plot point, she's almost killed by other other cadets who want her place, and so again, she figures out how is she going to proactively now take charge. So prior to the middle plot point, something has happened and she's like, React, react, react. At the middle plot point, she decides she's gonna trust Satan with a very, very important secret of one of her dragons. So that's different for her. And so now going forward in the story, she has a fundamental relationship change, which often happens in the middle plot point. Gigi has trusted someone who could be risky to trust. She has chosen sides between her childhood friend and Zaydan. So she's made a big decision there where she's gonna go. And now she starts making decisions on how to drive the story forward that she's actually gonna survive this year. And so her actions change going forward now from how she was behaving before. And that's kind of the shift.

SPEAKER_00: 20:08

Right. And so that based on that, what listeners have heard you say, that takes her from being reactive or more like, I'm just gonna kind of throw whatever I have at this problem to now I'm gonna be more strategic, I'm trusting, I'm open, I have more knowledge and all that fun stuff. Um, so other than that, how does that relate to like this inner obstacle at the midpoint?

SPEAKER_01: 20:29

So at the midpoint, so the character doesn't quite know yet. They don't understand what their flaw is. And at this point, at the midpoint, Violet still doesn't understand that she has to depend on other people. And so she just wants to do stuff her own. I've got to protect this person, I've got to protect, I you know, I'm gonna do this on my own instead of looking for help. And until she works as a team, she's gonna fail. So her main internal flaw going through is that lack of trust, which there's a little shift at the midpoint, and actually working, collaborating, and relying on other people. And until she does that, which of course she does in the climax. Yeah, she can't move forward.

SPEAKER_00: 21:08

Love it. Okay, so that's the midpoint. And why do you think some people have so much trouble like getting to this midpoint and then going past the midpoint?

SPEAKER_01: 21:17

I think partly when you look at it is all of Act Two, it's big. If your novel's 80,000 words, it's 40,000 words of your novel. That's a lot of words. So it's really big. And it's very hard to find places where it's clearly defined what you're doing at that part of your book. And so when you're looking at the middle plot point, you break it even more. So the middle plot point is the scene where they go from reactive to proactive. So the scene before that, you you can show their character motivation leading up to it, and the scene after it, you show their reaction. So now that gives you a couple of more scenes to spread out, you know, it clusters around a story arc scene, and you can start putting stuff in. And so instead of trying to write the whole way through, if you know just your five scenes that you know in the inciting instant their life is is shaken up. So you're writing a romance, the characters meet. You know that. That's your scene. Plot point one, one of them accepts the attraction, that's your scene. And you go through the book that way, which is very high-level view. So I'm not saying you have to outline the whole thing, but just a concept of what these scenes are. And then if you look at a story arc scene and say, okay, the scene before is where we see their motivation, and the scene be after is where we see their reaction, which means, oh, character growth right there. You can see where to place things and put high-level events of, okay, well, you know, if all all of the people I go to school would try and kill me, every reaction to that. Like the reaction, you can't be like, oh, that was a nice day. I'll go on. That was just a Saturday spot, right? You're going to change in some way because of a dramatic event. And that's where the scene after comes in. And then you can start doing bits and pieces instead of starting at page one and going, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00: 23:06

Yeah. I think a lot of writers discount that too because for readers, that reaction and that like, I'm seeing the world in a new way, even if it's not every facet of the world, but you know, is really interesting to readers. I love reading that part. Yeah. So I think sometimes we discount it because we're like, well, we know, we know, it's boring to us, but it's, you know, for readers, that stuff's gold.

SPEAKER_01: 23:26

That's what you want, right? You want to you want to experience the whole thing of what that character's feeling.

SPEAKER_00: 23:31

Yeah. That's the power of a novel, right? To be in someone's head.

SPEAKER_01: 23:35

Yes. And so the trick is if there's no middle plot point, so if you think about somebody who's just reacting all over the place, they're up going. I'm over here, I'm over here, I'm over here. I have no plan. And until they start to be proactive, so they're active, right? Yeah. Reactive. They're not doing nothing, they're busy, but reacting. After the middle plot point, they start to focus. They're going to make all kinds of mistakes, but they have a plan, sort of, right? They have an idea, could be totally wrong, but they are now driving the story. And until they do that, you can't bring the story to a close because the character will be all over the place. It doesn't right. It they need to come to a point where they grow enough that they can now close the story off.

SPEAKER_00: 24:17

Right, which brings us to the end of act two. Well, talk about this, because this is typically that all is lost, like, you know, everything's crashing down, and then we're going into the climax.

SPEAKER_01: 24:28

So here's the really interesting thing about plot point two. Everybody talks about the all is lost moment, but it's also something else. And this can come a little bit before plot point two, in plot point two, a little bit after, but it's right in that cluster somewhere. And this is what I mean by hold things loosely. Don't try and be it's exactly this plan. It's not, it's just the guidelines where you're gonna meld it to your story. And the second thing about it is they get their final piece of information that they need, or final piece of knowledge about themselves that they need. So fantasy, it could be oh, like that, I wield lightning. Right. That's an interesting piece of information. And her internal, she actually kills somebody, which she didn't think she could do, and of course she does a little bit by accident with her lightning, but she does. And that that brings her to her lowest, lowest point of she's tried this whole novel not to kill anybody and still stay alive. She finally kills somebody, and she learns her signet is lightning, and that's what she needs to solve the climax. If they don't get that final piece of information, they can never solve the climax. They can't, they can't do it. They need information. There will always be a final piece of information. If you drop it too late, it looks like an author trick too convenient. So I'll put it like right before the climax. Oh, look, here's your magic wand. Right.

SPEAKER_00: 25:57

I can win. Yeah. I love that. Right. So they need to. Yeah, and I I love what you're saying about cluster scenes too, because something I see writers struggle with is they're like, I get a midpoint scene or I get an all is lost scene, and they just think they have to cram stuff into one scene. And it's like nothing in your story is that isolated. So you do have these before-after kind of I like to think about it as like a ripple, you know, that happens and you ripple out both ways.

SPEAKER_01: 26:21

And so that's a really interesting point because what we're talking about is the functions that should be in your story. You as the artist get to decide where you're putting them. There's general areas and things that go together, but you can decide: is this one scene? Is it five scenes? Is it two chapters? Like whatever it is for the style of book you're writing, you as the writer get to decide that. What you're looking for is are these functions in there generally in the right place? Awesome. Off you go. Yeah, it's great.

SPEAKER_00: 26:50

And they're not just rules for the sake of rules, right? They're they're very specific guidelines that help us create the result we want. And if you want to write commercial fiction, then you, you know, mostly want to adhere to the the guidelines and of course still take it with, you know, a grain of salt and do what's best for your story, but they are there for a reason.

SPEAKER_01: 27:08

Yeah. And you know, if you understand them, then when you don't do them, you know why. And you'll know what works for your story because your story is going to be you as an individual, and there might be something in it that that just doesn't work. Right. At least you understand why and you can compensate for it so that there is enough tension in the story at the right moments to keep the reason.

SPEAKER_00: 27:30

Right. I think that reason why or knowing why is so important too, because like you were saying, your midpoint could be one scene, two scenes, three scenes, whatever. And as long as it works and you're not just like cramming in a bunch of information or, you know, doing the things that are not recommended to do, as long as you have a good reason why, most people are not going to complain.

SPEAKER_01: 27:49

No. And if you look at Game of Thrones, the midpoint there, three chapters. I can't remember the exact order, but Tyrion Lannister, Jon Snow, and Ned Stark all have a point of view and they're all part of the they're all part of the middle middle plot point where the humans get proactive against the White Walkers in a kind of hidden way because they're not a they're not big in the scene at that point. Exactly at that point, but it's three characters, three three chapters. Yeah. So talk to us about the climax. So the climax, this is something I've I learned as an editor. Many writers can write a really exciting climax scene. Like you're reading and think, that is fantastic. It has nothing to do with the story. Right. So, for example, if if we're living in a society of vampires, and this is a made-up story, and um you can get a vaccination against vampires, but only until you're five years old. And it's really expensive. So there's the there's the drama. If the scene at the end is a great big battle with vampires, great. What happened to the protagonist in trying to get this vaccination? This it has to answer did she or didn't she get her vaccination? Is she or isn't she a vampire? Right. Has to answer that. And so the biggest struggle with climax scenes is remembering, and again, we get back to what's your story about? Your protagonist must accomplish something. Either they do or they don't, and it's clear in the climax scene. And once that happens, the story is over. Yeah. Done. Right. And then you have a resolution and you're closing a mission, the stuff that comes after it. And typically that's for showing who is the character now. How did it change them? And what's their new world? And if you're writing a series, what's coming next in the in the series?

SPEAKER_00: 29:32

Yeah. And I agree. It's so funny that you said that about kind of you're writing a climax that answers something totally different than the main story question. I see that happen all the time. It's like, um, it'll start out as what seems like a romance, and then by the end, we're confronting the guy that killed somebody, and you're like, How did we get here? So sometimes writers will realize this has happened, and then they'll say, Well, I like this, the climax, and and I don't want to change the climax. And it's like, okay, cool. You can do whatever you want. It's your story. Just make sure that the beginning matches the end, or vice versa. Yes, you have to go back and write beginning part. And your story blurb.

SPEAKER_01: 30:07

You gotta write the book description to match that. Yeah. That is a story. And it can happen where you write your story and you think, nope, it's actually this. Right. A lot of work. Which is why, if ahead of time you know what your five story arc scenes are, in a very high level, you can keep focused. And then that saves a ton of time of getting to a climax and going, no, that's not my story.

SPEAKER_00: 30:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 30:30

Rewrite.

SPEAKER_00: 30:31

And even you kind of hinted at this earlier, but even for someone who's a pantser, just kind of thinking through it. You don't have to do any planning or any, you know, anything that you feel like is going to cage you in, but just thinking through it and thinking these are the options I could play with or whatever. And the knowledge of these story arc scenes will inform your draft as well. Yeah. I think it's valuable for anybody, no matter who you identify as.

SPEAKER_01: 30:53

You know, the thing about if I'm going to give you two things, like the most important things to do when you're writing a story to your pantster, that's great. If you know who's your protagonist, what's their goal, and what's at stake if they don't achieve that goal. And you know what your climax scene is. Every scene you write, you can ask yourself, does it help or hinder the protagonist in achieving that goal? Every scene. And then you know it belongs in your book. It gives you a ton of ideas, like we're doing goal attempts. Wait, I just did one where they succeeded. So I better do one where they fail. So I keep the tension going. And you can look at every scene you're writing and figure out, okay, that does this make sense in the context of my story, or do I have to adapt it just a little bit? So now it's helping or hindering them to get that goal. Right. And then you don't write all over the place and spend hours and hours writing stuff that aren't going to be in your book.

SPEAKER_00: 31:41

I love that idea. And and it goes back to kind of what I talk about all the time is these are all tools to help us do what we want to do. So you can pick them up, put them down whenever you want or whenever you need them. And sounds like you're saying the same thing.

SPEAKER_01: 31:54

Yeah. And and you know, flexibility is just a little bit of knowledge and the flexibility, you write a better story.

SPEAKER_00: 31:59

Yeah. And being open to maybe going down some rabbit holes too and getting things wrong sometimes, you know? The more we cross off our list of this doesn't belong in our story, the closer we get to what does.

SPEAKER_01: 32:09

Yes. So it's hard to do. I mean, none of us.

SPEAKER_00: 32:13

I know. I'm a rec I say I'm a recovering perfectionist. It's very hard to do. But you know, I think once you practice with that kind of stuff too, it does get a lot easier. But okay, so let's talk about. I have two or three things I want to ask you about. So one is like if I'm a writer and I'm stuck in my draft, how often do you think I would be stuck because I'm not nailing one of these key scenes? Or probably because I don't have a goal. Like, talk to me about what you would do if you were stuck.

SPEAKER_01: 32:38

So if you're stuck, I like to say, and I know I'm repeating this, but you go back to what's your story about? And where are you in the story? So if you know, for example, you're somewhere between the middle plot point and plot point two, between those scenes, there's external pressures that either help or hinder the protagonist in achieving their story goal. And you start thinking about what could those external pressures be? Well, I'm in a romance and we've just gotten past this middle plot point, and things look fantastic. And oh, my love interest ex just arrived back on the scene. And oh, by the way, they were married for eight years and have three children and two dogs, and you know, right. Yeah. Or they get erroneous information that their their love interest is cheating on them. And so they go, gotta end this relationship, and that's all over. And so you look at where you are in the story and then think about well, what three external pressures could I put? And different ones, it can't be three times their ek comes back.

unknown: 33:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 33:41

It could even be a little crazy. Their ek comes back, and then they get they get offered the job with their dreams, but oops, in a different country. And then, you know, whatever it is, but you start brainstorming about what can I put in their way, that's an external that they have to decide what they're gonna do about it. And so it starts to give you ideas uh of what to do. The other thing I I I like to do is I start working on a different section. So if I'm stuck at one point, I and I do all my story arc scenes first, and then I do the lead ups and the and the reaction scenes, and then I do the fill-in and I I just stop. Okay, I'm stuck here, I'm gonna go over here now. Instead of external pressures, I'm gonna work somewhere on goals. Let's do some goal attempts. Let's do that and I change just to open up my brain.

SPEAKER_00: 34:29

Yeah. Kind of like shake your brain loose and get some new ideas going.

SPEAKER_01: 34:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 34:33

I love that. So it's it's kind of if I'm hearing you right, it's like look at the big picture, think about what your story is really about, look at those uh story arc scenes, and then kind of think logically from your character's perspective, like what are some things that they would do, and or what are some things you could throw in their way. And usually some combination of that will get you unstuck.

SPEAKER_01: 34:51

And you know, the other thing too is if you look at uh if you're writing a fantasy and you have a romance subplot, stop working on the main plot and go work on the subplot a little bit.

SPEAKER_00: 35:01

That's a great idea.

SPEAKER_01: 35:02

Maybe the muse is they're living over in the subplot, they're not living over here today, they're over there. I'll go over there and find them. And so you can start looking at, well, how am I gonna put my subplot in and what makes sense for my for my subplot and which which plot points have to happen before the others? And when you're looking at, if you combined, say a romance and a fantasy, which is very popular, right? Both the romance and the fantasy in that book are gonna have an inciting incident. And so you you look at, well, if we look at at the inciting incident for Fourth Wing, happens before the story starts. The inciting incident where she's going to go to dragon college, the inciting incident with the dragons, well, that has to happen after she's gone to dragon college. So of course the other one has to come first. And you can start thinking about okay, I've got this romance now. Here's where they meet, here's where there's attraction, here's where there's a misunderstanding, here's where they break up, and here's where they get together.

SPEAKER_00: 35:56

Where do those scenes fit and go write those? Right. And then you can probably see all these avenues of how they'll play together. Yeah. So I love that idea too. And something that I tell writers is when you're stuck, if you're in the big picture outlining, you can zoom into a scene and or vice versa. So just kind of switch your lens, and that usually will help. That's a great idea. Let's go back to this idea of uh multi-point of view because you said Game of Thrones. I know people are going to be wondering how do we do this if we're writing a multi-point of view? Do if we have three point of view characters, do we need three sets of story arc scenes?

SPEAKER_01: 36:28

Right. And the answer, of course, is no, you don't. You can. So if we look at, you know, books like Everyone Here is Lying, or it's very popular right now in the mystery genre to have a many points of view characters. So you got your suspects and your detective or your amateur sleuth or whatever. Fantasy also, depending on the type of fantasy, can be single protagonist or multiple points of view, different things, right? So when you're looking at, let's see if I can think of a good example of there's so many single point of view novels. So if we look at Game of Thrones, we'll stick with that because that's it's famous and it and it has lots. They basically have a group, the humans, who have to figure out how they're going to use the supernatural to overtake the White Walkers or they all die. So that's one story arc. Then there's individual story arcs for some of the characters, but not all of them. One of their point of view characters has one scene. He's the poor guy who dies in scene one. Oops. Right. The characters that do, some will have a full story arc all the way through. Some will just have pieces of a story arc. In a series, some of their story arc will go over the series, some will end in book one. So you have a lot of artistic choice on how you're going to bring the two together. In a romance, quite often, there will be a full romance story arc, and then there'll be a partial external. So the one character's external goal might be, you know, I'm I have to sell my restaurant. And so, but that is only valuable until they have close proximity. So lots of times in a romance, you need close proximity. There's a reason the two romance love interests need to be forced together. But once that's done, that story arc is over. Done over. And that could end up plot point one really early. So there's so much flexibility there. Maybe you just have the inciting incident and a climax. Often, if it's a secondary one, there won't be a plot point two because there can only be one lowest of the low. Right. And so there is no plot point two for that particular story arc. So you need your main one and then you start playing with the other ones.

SPEAKER_00: 38:40

Yeah. I think it depends too if it's like an ensemble cast that's all together, like in Six of Crows or something versus Game of Thrones, where they're all spread out, you know, because if you're writing a story like Game of Thrones, you might have each person does have a true story arc as well as the overarching story arc. Where in Six of Crows, you might have the group has a story arc, you know.

SPEAKER_01: 39:00

Yeah, it's exactly the point, right? So anybody in that group can be the can be the point of view for the story arc scenes. Usually the protagonist is the point of view for the story arc scenes. That's what the reader wants to see, right? The big events are happening, they better be part of it. But it can be anybody in that ensemble.

SPEAKER_00: 39:16

Yeah, love it. Okay, and so a couple last questions. If you were in the editing phase and you're looking at your full draft, do you recommend kind of starting with the lens of these five story arc scenes to kind of just say, does this work in general? Yeah. And I call that the story test.

SPEAKER_01: 39:33

Do you have a story? And so when you look at it and you go through and you pull out a single sentence for every you do your after draft outline, where are your five scenes? Are they in the right place? Are they doing what they're supposed to be doing? Well, and do you have all five?

SPEAKER_02: 39:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 39:50

Right. And that is your very first thing because if that's not there, you don't have a story yet. So don't bother editing anything else. If there's no plot point two, you have to go write it and put it in. Then you can edit the rest of the stories. It, you know, or say, for example, your inciting incident doesn't happen until 40% into the story. You gotta look at what's you have to get it restructured so it's in the right place and yeah, forward. And then and then you know you have a story. And then it's worth editing down at the detail level.

SPEAKER_00: 40:18

Yeah. And sometimes I see people like in that example you said of do you even have a climax scene? And if you don't, you need to figure that out. Some people I've seen, they'll they'll be like, Well, oh, it's hard. I'll figure it out later. And then they go and they edit like act one to the detail, and it's like, well, you don't really know what details are going to be relevant or that you need to set up because you don't know what your climax looks like. Exactly. So sometimes we have I do this too. We avoid something because it feels hard. It's hard. And it's hard. But it's like your job is being made so much more hard by not doing it.

SPEAKER_01: 40:49

It is, and you know, you look at the climax scene where you have a special object. Should be in the beginning, too, right? Right. So my advice when people are editing, don't touch scene one until you did the rest. Just leave it alone. You've got it. It might not even be where you end up starting, but just leave it alone. Often a writer will get hung up. Perfect, perfect, perfect, perfect, perfect. Get to the end and go, I don't even need that scene. So to keep going when you're revising, leave it alone. Like you've got a scene. Great. People start somewhere. Get to the end. And you go back and you're like, whoa, what I really need, it should start in scene three. And I need to put this object in because here it is, and I want a mirror, so it feels really closed. And my des full circle. So now I can go back and do that.

SPEAKER_00: 41:30

But you got to and it's funny you say that because so many writers will be like, How do professional authors do this? They put the clues in, they make the mirror scenes, and it's like, you can do it too. You just need to get to the end and know what your story's about before you can put all these cool things in. You're never gonna know them on draft one.

SPEAKER_01: 41:46

No, and when you go back and uh murder in the Irish village. So it's a uh cozy mystery with an amateur sleuth. And in the opening scene, you meet like four of the suspects, the murder weapon, the antagonist, the protagonist. And when you read it and then you go back and you look at every single thing in that opening scene, you think, yep, used, used, used, used, used. Every clue is there. Yeah. I love that. As a reader, you just read it. It's like, oh, this is a good scene. But as a writer, she had to know that.

SPEAKER_00: 42:17

Yeah. I love that. And personally, when I read a book, I always finish and I go back and reread the first chapter because I'm just a nerd about can I see all the things that she dropped that I didn't know or whatever? I think it's super fun. But okay, so is there any like final piece of advice you would give to writers who are feeling overwhelmed by structure and who want to make sure they're getting all these things right?

SPEAKER_01: 42:36

Bit by bit. I had a boss who said inch by inch, life's this inch. So when things get overwhelming and too stressful, pick something small and just do that because you'll get there. If you get overwhelmed, just stop. That's very sad, right? But if you just do little pieces, you get one piece done, great. And if you're totally frustrated, walk away for a bit and come back. But do try and do smaller things instead of looking at, wow, I just sat down, I have 80,000 words to write. Hmm. Yeah. Write a scene that you're reading to most people for the record. It's very intimidating. And and I think, you know, anyone who's trying to write a novel is a high achiever. And anyone who has never written a novel doesn't understand how hard it is to write a novel and how much work it takes, how much thought it takes, how much emotion it takes, all of these things. And so make it easier on yourself and pick smaller segments instead of trying to make it perfect. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 43:30

I love that advice. Progress over perfection. That's what I say. Okay, so where can listeners learn more about fictionary and all the cool resources you have? Sure.

SPEAKER_01: 43:40

So we have uh the fictionary school for writers and editors, and you can join for free. It's fictionary.circle.so. And we do a whole bunch of free classes. We have trained editors who ask answer questions so you can ask specifically about your manuscript. We have a section of courses we teach where we don't record them, so we can actually work on your manuscript live, which is really fun. We do workshops where we'll give, say, 15 minutes of theory, and then we turn recording off, and then we just work on stuff together. So we're trying to provide an environment where it's affordable, everybody has access. We, of course, have a paid portion of the school, but we have a huge portion that's just for anybody who wants to come in and write their novel, basically.

SPEAKER_00: 44:24

And be around like-minded people who are also working on their novels. I love that. And so, speaking of the editors you have trained, you have a free gift for everyone listening that involves them. What is that?

SPEAKER_01: 44:34

Yes. Okay, so it's a course that we have. It's called An Insider's View of Story Editing. And what we did, we had 13 editors edit the same novel and then studied how they did it, and then wrote what what worked, what didn't work from an editor's perspective on basically the goal is to show writers what you should expect from a story editor. And so we put in the good and the bad throughout, showing all of the different pieces and why it's so important if you hire a structural editor or story editor to find one that suits you, because editors have their own voice and you need to find one that works for you and what they're looking for and kind of know your weaknesses when you have have an editor that I particularly repeat. I need an editor who's gonna pay attention to that and go, k'chunk, nope. You already said stop thinking, right? So, you know, you get carried away, you write that sentence, and then you write your different way. So it's the course is designed to really give writers a view of what editors do, and then you can take that knowledge and apply it to your own story. Of course, you can.

SPEAKER_00: 45:38

Yeah, I love that. I love a good behind the scenes. So not only do we get to see how editors really work, but also you can learn from the little course as well. So that's very cool. We will link to how to access that in the show notes. We'll link to fictionary and where you can find the resources that Christina mentioned. Thank you so much for being here today, Christina. It was a joy to have you and to nerd out about structure.

SPEAKER_01: 45:59

I know I love talking to you about structure. It is so much fun. So thank you.

SPEAKER_00: 46:04

Thank you. All right, so that's it for this episode of the Fiction Writing Made Easy Podcast. Head over to SavannahGilbo.com forward slash podcast for the complete show notes, including the resources I mentioned today, as well as bonus materials to help you implement what you've learned. And if you're ready to get more personalized guidance for your specific writing stage, whether you're just starting out, stuck somewhere in the middle of a draft, drowning in revisions, or getting ready to publish, take my free 30-second quiz at savannaGilbo.com forward slash quiz. You'll get a customized podcast playlist that'll meet you right where you're at and help you get to your next big milestone. Last but not least, make sure to follow this podcast in your podcast player of choice because I'll be back next week with another episode full of actionable tips, tools, and strategies to help you become a better writer. Until then, happy writing.