Speaker 1: 0:42

For so many years I had no idea what I was doing. But you take the first step and the path appears. And I find that again and again and again in all aspects of the writing, of the publishing, of the marketing. You just set your goal and if you work hard enough at it, it will come. You'll find your path definitely.

Speaker 2: 1:04

Welcome to the Fiction Writing Made Easy podcast. My name is Savannah Gilbo and I'm here to help you write a story that works. I want to prove to you that writing a novel doesn't have to be overwhelming, so each week I'll bring you a brand new episode with simple, actionable and step-by-step strategies that you can implement in your writing right away. So whether you're brand new to writing or more of a seasoned author looking to improve your craft, this podcast is for you. So pick up a pen and let's get started. In today's episode, I'm sharing a conversation with Naralee Lacey. She's one of my past clients, a student of my Notes to Novel course and the author of a wonderful novel called the Perfumer's Secret. In this episode, you're going to hear Naralee talk about how she owns and has studied every craft book you could imagine, but still struggled to finish her novel. And it might surprise you to learn that all of that knowledge collecting and a National Indie Excellence Award winner in women's fiction. You're also going to hear how a self-proclaimed introvert built a 3,000-person newsletter and discovered that she actually loves marketing. So if you've been buying book after book hoping that the next one will finally unlock the secrets to finishing your novel, or if you're someone who's drowning in conflicting writing advice. This conversation will show you why sometimes less is really more.

Speaker 2: 2:35

Now, before we get into all the details, I want to read you the back cover copy of Naroli's novel the Perfumer's Secret, so you have a little context.

Speaker 2: 2:42

Here's what it says Zandy Watson, a 30-year-old documentary maker from New York with a scumbag father and a broken past, is a social justice warrior hell-bent on making movies that will expose important truths. Except she has to pay the bills and her boss insists she goes to the south of France to make some puff piece about a 300-year-old perfume house In Grass, the perfume capital of the world, rich in delicate flowers. Zandy is seduced by the perfumer's art and by Dominique Severin, a secretive, debonair heir who is battling to preserve his honor by keeping his family business alive. But behind the glamorous facade, zandy discovers a shameful secret. Holding a glittering chance to do what's right by telling the truth, she faces a heartbreaking choice. Will she betray the lover who trusted her with his secrets, and will she destroy thousands of innocent lives along the way? All right, so that's on the back cover of Neroli's book the Perfumer's Secret. So, without further ado, let's dive into my conversation with Neroli Lacey.

Speaker 1: 3:41

We were living in Minneapolis, minnesota, and we had two small daughters. It was extremely cold for six months of the year, or maybe nine months of the year. We did this completely bonkers thing, which is we bought a holiday home in the warmest part of France, in the southeast corner of France, and the home is between the mountains and the sea. I love the mountains, my husband loves the sea, and we hiked all over this land and fell in love with the slow pace of life and the old stone village and with the local tradition of pressing flowers to make perfume. And I just had to write a love letter to these gorgeous mountains, this beautiful landscape. This is just an incredible place that has given us so much.

Speaker 1: 4:29

Years after we bought the home, I remembered that my mother, my late mother, had taken me to Grasse as a child.

Speaker 1: 4:35

Grasse is the international centre of perfume. Because she was a trailblazing woman who, in the 1950s and 60s, used to sell essential oils oils to grass, that's the essence of plant flowers and in fact she named me Neroli, after a famous orange blossom called Neroli or Le Bigard. So I started to kind of develop this idea. That was a sort of love letter to the region and a bit of a love letter to my late mother, and then all sorts of amazing things came together. Even later on, we went to an amazing little house, a restaurant in a small house, and I realized that my mother had taken me to this house as a child in the pouring rain at night, and it was the home of the big perfume house that she used to sell essential oils to. I mean, that was just an extraordinary moment. I'd already started writing the book, and the terraces of this house, of this beautiful restaurant, used to grow jasmine, and very shortly before I went there, they changed it to grow narrowly.

Speaker 1: 5:43

So I think that writing a novel is pattern making. It's about making meaning out of disparate things. But as you can see, as you can hear, there was a lot of pattern making in this Right.

Speaker 2: 5:54

You also put some of your background in, because tell us a little bit about, like your past careers and how you got to Zandi being a journalist.

Speaker 1: 6:02

Ah, yes, well, I used to be a journalist. I wrote for many years for all the great British newspapers the Times, the Sunday Times, the Independent, the Guardian. I was a feature writer on the Evening Standard, I wrote for Vogue and I wrote for all the magazines. I've done a lot of things. I've been an investment banker and a commodity trader and I've got two wildly spirited daughters and an adventurous stepson. I've traveled all over the world and all this experience adds up to living my dream, which is now writing delicious fiction for clever women.

Speaker 2: 6:36

I love that. That's like the best tagline ever. So if I could take you all the way back in time to when we met in 2020, it was early 2020. What had you tried before we started working on this together, Savannah?

Speaker 1: 6:49

I had tried everything. I own every book on writing a novel. I've done every class. I've worked with some of the great teachers, I've worked with many editors and it was step by step by step for me. And when I came to you, I had something quite messy and a lot of passion about it and I really didn't know how to tie the thing together. And you helped me bring it across the finish line in so many ways and I'm so grateful to you. It was just an absolute dream to work with you and I'm one of the lucky people because I think you don't work one-on-one with anybody anymore but I was one of the lucky people to work with you and you were just the perfect coach, because you were tough but not too tough. It was soft but not too soft. You were just right for me Perfect.

Speaker 2: 7:36

Oh, that's so good to hear. And I remember some of the conversations we had, just like it was yesterday and I was looking through our folder of the work we shared and I was like, oh my gosh, how funny you have stuff from StoryGrid, stuff from Save the Cat, stuff from Lisa Krohn's Like she's not joking when she said she studied all the things and you were trying to implement all the things. And I remember that's something we had talked about is you were so well-versed. Do you think that that was almost like a hindrance in some way, because there were so many things you were trying to include in that first draft?

Speaker 1: 8:07

I do think. I mean I'm not sure it was the first draft it was, I don't know where it was at that point. I think that's right. I think I'm quite left brain logical and I've had to learn in writing a novel to let go and let the story come through me. And you really pushed me towards that. And I think the things that really helped for me working with you were the theory of genre as it comes from story grid, where we really figured out what kind of story this is. I mean my book's very multi-layered. I've got three different genres, but I can remember the big decisions about that yeah then working from that on the five c's of scene construction was incredibly helpful.

Speaker 1: 8:43

Um, those are things that and the inside outline I mean getting very nerdy here, but things that were very valuable to me in pulling together all my years of experience and getting a book that was ready to publish.

Speaker 2: 8:57

Yeah, and so listeners are pretty well versed in the story grid genres at this point, because I talk about them a lot. Where did you land with your three yes?

Speaker 1: 9:05

The external genre is crime journalism. I needed that. I have a love story and the genre that appeals to me the most is worldview. I will always write worldview and it is quite a multi-layered book and I think part of that is that I've got three different genres. But you helped me be very careful in the construction. The external story has got to be there, yeah.

Speaker 2: 9:29

Yeah, and I know that listeners are going to find this part super interesting, because there were times when we were like it's a love story, no, it's a society story, no, it's a crime story. And we could argue all the different ways and it really came down to like well, what do you want this to be? And then how do we make it fit your vision? So I just love hearing like what was the mess that we were in and where did we land? That's so fun. And then, commercially, you call this women's fiction. Right, I do upmarket women's fiction.

Speaker 1: 9:54

Yes, well, I think it's got a literary feel in terms of the style and in terms of the subjects that I tackle the theme, the complexity of the message, but it's also a page turn, definitely yeah, and so we worked together.

Speaker 2: 10:10

we had to work through things like your character arcs, your structure and all the things that you were saying, and then we got it to a point where you're like OK, I think I have what I need for now, and so we kind of didn't talk for a while. What were you doing in all that time?

Speaker 1: 10:21

Well, I was working through all the things that you taught me. I had an inside outline and then I just took it scene by scene and I made sure I had the five C's of every scene and, in particular, I think the turning point crisis and resolution was incredibly helpful for me. So I pulled it all the way through that and then you came up with a very, very smart suggestion, which was that I put it through a beta reading service called the Spun Yarn, which I'm a huge fan of, and they were extremely helpful in terms of just getting that last draft done.

Speaker 2: 10:54

Yeah, so that's great for our listeners to know, because I know like our listeners love hearing the story behind everything. So I'm sure they're wondering OK, you had a draft that you felt, from the work we've done together and all the hard work you did on your own, you felt good enough about it. And then you're like but there's probably things I don't know, so I'm going to go use the spun yarn and see how the readers react, what they're saying. Was there any kind of big pattern in their feedback or any big aha moments?

Speaker 1: 11:19

Yeah, what I love about the Spun Yarn and I've actually now put three manuscripts through them is that you get three different readers' views. So I've been in endless writing groups and you always get one person who's got a very strong view. But I feel if you've got more than one person saying the same thing, then you better sit up and listen. So that's what I really appreciated.

Speaker 2: 11:39

Okay, and so then you did the beta reading and then at some point you acted on whatever feedback you got and then I know you worked with other editors and people who could kind of guide you through the publishing process. So what was that like and why did you decide to publish through she Writes Press?

Speaker 1: 11:53

It wasn't a strategic decision. I started, I sent it out to about five agents and a friend had mentioned she Writes Press and I wasn't thinking very carefully about it. I was just starting the process and I got some interest from agents. But it was very early on and she Writes says we love this, we want it. Right now it's ready and it was so unexpected compared to that very long process that you go through with agents and it was a pretty quick decision. It was pretty instinctual. It was more a kind of why not? Than anything else and I'd spent a long time writing and it was just time. Yeah, I also thought that it would be more collaborative than traditional publishing and that's what I thought. What was that process like? Well, that's been a huge learning curve working with she Writes Press.

Speaker 1: 12:48

Nobody can quite understand outside the industry why it takes two years from signing the contract to publication. But boy, there is a signing the contract to publication. But boy, there is a lot of work to do. I mean, you've got to decide how to position the book in the market and that's where the cover comes in and the words that describe it and how you position it against other books. And then there's the long sort of rather tedious process of the copy edit and the brief read and first page. You have to read the book multiple times until you're ready to just about shoot yourself. So it's a long process but it was fantastic to go through that with a publisher in a rigorous way and learn what the standards are.

Speaker 1: 13:25

I can't really imagine doing that indie first, out of the gate and doing. I know some people do, but it's a lot of work which I'm a writer, I want to keep writing. I don't really want to be immersed in all of that and the best thing about she Writes is that we are very much encouraged to collaborate with, get to know the other writers who are publishing in the same season. So I led a Zoom group once a month. I think I led two actually for people publishing at the same time as me and more recently I've hosted get-togethers in my flat in New York. Wow, and as you know, community is everything in writing and it's an extraordinary group of people. And we're still I'm still running the Zoom groups, we're still in contact, sometimes in real life, and that's been an absolute thrill.

Speaker 2: 14:21

That's wonderful. Yeah, community is so huge, especially because, like you said, a lot of people don't get what a writer has to go through whether it's writing the book, editing the book or getting the book out in the world so it's nice to have people that do get it. So then, fast forward. Now your book is out. Have you done a lot of things in terms of marketing and, like? I know you've been doing podcast tours, but what else have you been doing?

Speaker 1: 14:42

Yes, I have done quite a lot and to my amazement I found that actually I really love marketing. So the story I started work at least at the time when I signed the contract with a brilliant marketing coach called Sue Campbell and she was such fun to work with. I think I have like a dream team between you my book coach, sue, my marketing coach, and Caroline Gilman, who helps me with publicity. I'm just over the moon to work with such amazing, talented people. So Sue recommended that I start a newsletter, like a long time ago, and I did what she told me and I'm amazed at what's come of that.

Speaker 1: 15:24

I've got 3000 subscribers and more important, or just as important, is that I give book reviews and I give some little anecdotes about the Debbie Wters life. But I take the book reviews extremely seriously. Like it's a big job for me to scavenge for the next books to recommend to you this month, and I don't watch TV anymore at all. All I do is read like voracious and I'm loving and I'm loving thinking about what makes a good book for my target audience and the reading is just absolutely incredible and I think that it took me about three to six months to find my voice, to find being comfortable with it. I am a journalist. I was a journalist and I knew that I would eventually find it. But I think I've really hit my stride and it seems to resonate with readers and I love it. I absolutely love it. It's an important part of my life.

Speaker 2: 16:20

Yeah, that's amazing.

Speaker 1: 16:22

Yeah, another thing that I did was I was having a chat with Sue about three months before the book was published and she said, casually, do you want to make money or sell books? And I was like I want to sell books because I'm not going to make a lot of money with the first book. I'm a career novelist and when you make those decisions in marketing, as you know, they can have a big impact because then you're not wobbling all over the place. You've chosen path. So I decided to really try hard to get reviews on Amazon in the early days and I worked very, very hard at that. I put my book up on BookFunnel and I sent it out to about 450 people and I'm an introvert so it was hard work for me to ask people to read the book and put a review on Amazon and ask them again and again and again. It was really good for me and you know I've done things that felt hard for me in the marketing and I feel really strong and ready to tackle anything.

Speaker 2: 17:19

That's awesome. I love hearing that you're an introvert, because so many listeners are also introverts, and I love that you found a way to make newsletters work for you, because I bet in a million years you never imagined in this scenario. You probably thought it would be like pulling teeth forever and that's something I talk to writers about. A lot is that a newsletter doesn't have to be like. Here's my writing update this week I logged 3000 words. It can be that, or it can be like what you're doing, which is sharing books that you know they're going to love, and that also says okay, I read the type of things you do. That means I write the type of things you do and it's just like. I think that's so great that you kind of came at it organically. And then also asking for reviews. It's so funny. I always laugh when people are like I had to ask again and again and again. And isn't that the truth about asking for reviews? It's not just once.

Speaker 1: 18:04

But it's quite an amazing process. I went to see a doctor yesterday that I've only seen. Once before in New York. Nine months ago I saw him and around the time I was starting my review campaign. Whenever I would go out into the city I would say to a nurse or whoever I was with what do you do to relax? And often enough they say I like to read. And then I'd say, oh, my debut novel is coming out and people are always very excited to meet an author. So with this particular doctor, we got into a little chat about books and he signed up for my newsletter, even though it's really targeted at women. Well, I went to see him yesterday. I've only met this man once before. And we're sitting talking and I'm saying what are you reading? Have you read anything good recently? And we're chatting about this and that and whatever vitamins I meant to be taking. And then he said, yeah, I have got something I want to read this summer. And he walked over to his backpack and he pulled out a copy of my book.

Speaker 2: 18:58

Oh, my God.

Speaker 1: 18:59

It's just such an amazing thing. So you see, you have to be constantly just asking people. You've just got to keep making the ask all the time and it's amazing what comes back at you.

Speaker 2: 19:09

That's a great story and, just so listeners know, I told Nerily that my mom had read her book and she's like ask your mom to leave a review. So she's really out there asking to get all those reviews and it's paying off. I mean, 3000 people on your list is so great, Like I can imagine listeners being like you're an introvert and you started with no subscribers and now you're at 3000. That's amazing.

Speaker 1: 19:29

When I got to 300, I said to Sue, this is making me really nervous for 300 people. And she said just wait, it's only going to get worse. Well, honestly, now I'm at 3,000. I'm like 3,000?.

Speaker 2: 19:41

What about 10,000? Yeah, you're like I'll be nervous when I hit 30,000. That's so funny. Well, that's great, and I know you said that sales are coming in well and you're happy with the results. But if you kind of looked back on your journey and let's say that you were talking to yourself 10, 15 years ago, what are some like pieces of advice or like were there any roadblocks, whether craft, wise, emotional, mental that came up that you would want to talk to your past self about?

Speaker 1: 20:23

just do it. You know you don't have to know what you're doing. For so many years I had no idea what I was doing, but you take the first step and the path appears. And I find that again and again and again in all aspects of the writing, of the publishing, of the marketing. You just set your goal and if you work hard enough at it, it will come. You'll find your path. Definitely. I'm sitting down now to write my fourth novel and I've got your voice in my ear about imposter syndrome and I know a lot of people you know will think, wow, fourth novel. You know it must feel easy. I have incredible imposter syndrome every day, but now I know it's just part of the work we've chosen.

Speaker 2: 20:58

And sometimes people will say that the more you feel imposter syndrome or that fear it's like, the more that this is the story you're meant to write, you know. So maybe that's true for you, which I'm sure it is and I like to say you hit a new level and you get a new devil. So like this is your devil in the fourth book. And a lot of people will say that the first book was hard because you're learning about craft and like how to do this thing right, and then the future books are hard because now you know how to do it, can you do it well and can you increase your skills and things like that. So pretty funny.

Speaker 1: 21:30

I also think that I'm learning now with my fourth book to just let go and let the story come through me. I think I've had so much resistance to that. I think I've tried to write a book by learning how to do it instead of just really trusting my intuition and that the story is inside. That's what I'm learning now with this book and I think for me it comes down to three C's. It's craft. You've got to be constantly learning and reaching higher for the next level of craft. I work all the time at building community, at finding writers to connect with, to collaborate with, to share work with, and then courage, because you constantly feel like you're not it.

Speaker 2: 22:10

Yeah, yeah. A lot of people will chase another C, which is confidence. They think if I just like show up at my desk, I need to fake it till I make it, and it's like no use the courage to then build the confidence you know, because it'll come, but you have to have the courage first. So I love that. And just I'm curious about this Are all your stories kind of in the same content genre, like the same mix of those three?

Speaker 1: 22:31

The story I'm working on now which is a sequel to the Perfumer's Secret. It's called the Vineyarder's Secret. Love it. It's got a slightly different external story. It's going to be performance, I think, and then I will have a love story and I will have worldview. I'm always going to write love and worldview but I'm never going to write romance. But that's kind of the. But I need the external to keep the pages turning.

Speaker 2: 22:53

And then they're all going to probably be women's fiction because, like you said, you're not writing a romance, but there will be romance as a piece of it.

Speaker 2: 22:59

So I think that's fun, because a lot of writers listening are probably they probably wonder that about themselves Am I going to stick to the same thing? Am I going to branch out? And I think it's a pretty healthy mix of what people tend to do. They either stay in their lane or they're like I want to write a little bit of everything, and both are great. But I'm so excited for you and I'm, you know, just thinking of all your big dreams you have with your books, and to hear that you have three more in the pipeline and one is a sequel is super exciting. So congratulations on getting to this point. And is there anything any like last minute pieces of advice you would give to anybody?

Speaker 1: 23:31

work with savannah. It's just. It's been an amazing ride, savannah, to watch you as well and you're just. You put such incredible work into the world and it's of such value to all of us laboring on our own and you've got such an incredible body of knowledge. It's just fantastic. And to see you grow too into your voice and into your special you know what's the special talents has just been amazing. And I would just say to anybody keep going, believe you know, even if you don't believe in yourself, keep going because it's you can definitely do it. You've just got to put the miles in.

Speaker 2: 24:06

Yeah, I love that and thank you so much for those kind words. We will link to your book and where we can find you around the internet and things like that. But is there anything else you want to share with the audience in terms of like freebies or free chapters?

Speaker 1: 24:19

I am delighted for your special audience, Savannah, to offer a free version of the e-book. We'll put a link in the show notes. I think Love it, and if you would be so kind to help out this debut author and put me an honest review on Amazon, I will be really grateful. Thank you so much.

Speaker 2: 24:36

Yes, and what a great example of always asking for reviews. I love it. So, yes, you heard it here. You're getting a free ebook and please read it. Please leave her a review and I look forward to having you back on for the next book that you publish.

Speaker 1: 24:48

Fantastic. Thank you so much.

Speaker 2: 24:51

All right. So that's it for this episode of the Fiction Writing Made Easy podcast. Head over to savannahgilbocom forward slash podcast for the complete show notes, including the resources I mentioned today, as well as bonus materials to help you implement what you've learned. And if you're ready to get more personalized guidance for your specific writing stage whether you're just starting out, stuck somewhere in the middle of a draft, drowning in revisions, or getting ready to publish, take my free 30-second quiz at savannahgilbocom forward slash quiz. You'll get a customized podcast playlist that'll meet you right where you're at and help you get to your next big milestone. Last but not least, make sure to follow this podcast in your podcast player of choice, because I'll be back next week with another episode full of actionable tips, tools and strategies to help you become a better writer. Until then, happy writing.