Speaker 1: 1:01

For reviews. It's not honestly about you. The reviews are for other readers, they're not for you, and so when somebody is writing a review about your book, it actually isn't personal, it has nothing to do with you. Like we put our hearts and souls into these projects. But I think it's really important to remember that those aren't for you and they're not about you, because that boundary can really help you set some guidelines and boundaries for yourself around how you take in those reviews and like what purpose it's serving, because their purpose is not for you.

Speaker 2: 1:49

Welcome to the Fiction Writing Made Easy podcast. My name is Savannah Gilbo and I'm here to help you write a story that works. I want to prove to you that writing a novel doesn't have to be overwhelming, so each week, I'll bring you a brand new episode with simple, actionable and step-by-step strategies that you can implement in your writing right away. So whether you're brand new to writing or more of a seasoned author looking to improve your craft, this podcast is for you. So pick up a pen and let's get started.

Speaker 2: 2:15

I think it's probably true for most writers that getting your first book review can be both thrilling and terrifying all at once, and whether it's a glowing five-star love letter or a brutal one-star takedown reader, reviews can send even the most confident authors into an emotional tailspin.

Speaker 2: 2:32

But here's what I've learned after working with hundreds of writers your relationship with reviews does not have to be a source of constant anxiety. In fact, with the right mindset and practical strategies, reviews can become a valuable part of your author journey rather than something you dread. I recently sat down with book coaches Emily Golden and Rachel May of Golden May Editing to explore this exact challenge. Between their own publishing experiences and years of guiding clients through getting reviews, they've witnessed the full spectrum of reactions, from authors who expected to handle criticism well but then crumbled all the way, to writers who feared the worst but discovered unexpected resilience. And in this episode, you're going to learn why reviews feel so much more intense than any other kind of feedback you'll get. You'll learn five essential mindset shifts that build emotional resilience, and you'll walk away with some practical strategies for both leveraging positive reviews and recovering from negative ones. So I won't make you wait any longer, let's dive right into my conversation with Emily Golden and Rachel May of Golden May Editing.

Speaker 1: 3:38

We often will see writers start to worry about reviews before they even have their first draft of their first book done right. Reviews are one of those things where it's like, if you want to put your book in the world, it's something that you know is coming down the road, and I think a lot of writers are fearful of that and scared of how that might affect them, and I think it can be a helpful thing to think about reviews and how to approach them before you're actually at the point where the reviews are coming in.

Speaker 2: 4:09

Yeah, so that's what we're going to help with today, and it's interesting because we could even zoom out and say like we feel this way about getting feedback in general sometimes, whether it's from beta readers, coaches, editors or the review after a book is published.

Speaker 2: 4:18

So there's kind of a lot that goes into the topic, and what I have found on my side is that some writers think that they're going to handle it really well and then, surprise, they don't, or they think this is going to kill me. And then they're like totally fine, do you guys see that as well? Yeah, so it's almost like you never really know how you're going to handle it until it happens, which is hard. But also like, even if you're worried about it doesn't mean it's you're going to handle it poorly because you might surprise yourself. So to handle it poorly because you might surprise yourself, so let's talk about that. Let's talk about, like, how do we go about preparing ourselves for this emotional journey of reviews? And maybe we can even talk about like why is it different getting feedback from beta readers versus a reviewer? And like when that happens?

Speaker 3: 4:59

Yeah, I think the the emotion that you feel is similar, but it's a completely different situation. So in either way you get the same sort of physiological response. Usually it's one of the fear fight, you know, fought, like one of the fear responses. I forget what they're called, but it's one of fear, fight, fought, and there's another one now Freeze. Yes, so you get triggered kind of in both scenarios, but they are really different.

Speaker 3: 5:27

Feedback in a partnership scenario, in a writer to writer relationship, can feel really defensive. So again we're getting that same feeling come out. But that's when you're like looking for feedback to implement and you're looking for how can I make this book stronger or what do you like about this book? Because positive feedback is still really really valuable and that is in the headspace of like I want to change this book for better, like for a reason, and that could be through positive feedback or through negative feedback. That is feedback.

Speaker 3: 6:01

But reviews are like the book's done, I can't change it, I'm not going to change it, but someone's commenting on it and it is wildly outside of my control, like I don't know that person, I don't trust that person. They can say whatever they want, not to my face, and that gives, like a lot of reviewers, some kind of permission to say things that can sometimes hurt. I mean to be real, but that's not feedback, that's commentary, and usually like we have the same kind of response that we should be able to do something about it, that we should be able to like, react to it and like, oh, I need to explain myself or, or I need to change something, or I need to do something, and in a feedback relationship that's built on trust and respect, there is action you can take. In a review situation there's not. The book is done, and so it often can leave us feeling like even a little more helpless, a little more defenseless, because there's not much we can do about it.

Speaker 1: 6:56

Yeah, I also think it's really important to note that the purpose in the audience for, let's say, beta feedback and a review are very, very different. Right, when you're sending your manuscript out to folks for feedback so that you can change your book, like the relationship, the communication is between you and them, they are giving you feedback. For reviews, it's not honestly about you. The reviews are for other readers, they're not for you. And so when somebody is writing a review about your book, it actually isn't personal, it has nothing to do with you. It's them sharing their opinion with other readers so that those aren't for you and they're not about you. Because that boundary can really help you set some guidelines and boundaries for yourself around how you take in those reviews and like what purpose it's serving, because their purpose is not for you.

Speaker 2: 8:01

Yeah, and I think that's super important, that distinction of when you're in the beta feedback phase and you're getting the feedback. It serves a totally different purpose. Like you said, it's to make the story better. Usually you, you know at least kind of know the people you're getting feedback from. You know that they might have similar goals.

Speaker 2: 8:18

If you're doing like critique partner swaps or things like that and also you can ask them questions, you can say, like what did you mean by this potentially, whereas a review it's none of that, right, it's none of that. So you can't ask them for clarification. It's not even really meant, like you said, as a critique on you. It's just about your story. Is this going to get in the hands of readers? So I wanted to echo that because I think that's really helpful for listeners to hear that they have two different purposes. It's not just about different times or different people. There are two different purposes. So, given that let's pretend that we've gone through the beta feedback and we're publishing our book, how do we prepare to get potentially some negative reviews? Or actually, how do we prepare to even get reviews, positive or negatively, because getting any kind of review is scary, yeah.

Speaker 3: 9:06

I think there's a big challenge in being like perceived so just like that psychological oh my gosh, people are going to consume something that I've written. It really is nerve wracking either way, positive or negative wise, yeah, but I think what I have found personally helpful for my own reviews and then with working with clients is a couple things. I think it's really important to work on just your mindset in general as far as, like, separating the work from identity. Like this book is not you as a person. So when there are critiques about this book, or if there's positive praise about this book, it is. It does not relate back to, like how much you love yourself, right, Like the worth that you carry about yourself. It's not a critique about you as an author with your identity.

Speaker 3: 9:51

So I think there's work to be done there to prepare yourself, but also to really dive into who is your ideal reader, who is this book for? Because to me, like those are the reviews that quite frankly matter and, like reviews coming from people who are not my ideal reader, they don't matter that I didn't write this book for them. So, knowing those working on both sides of that equation of like I'm writing this for a specific person. I know exactly who that is. Those reviews I'm going to look at those or I'm going to put you know care into those reviews. But also, my identity is not tied up into this project, this book. I am still like a valuable, worthy, loved human being, regardless of what anybody says about this book.

Speaker 2: 10:35

Yeah, and on that note, I have a funny real life story where, you know, because we can use services like NetGalley and things that just open up our book to so many different people and we can put tropes or genres or whatever we want on those labels and people ignore them. So in real life, one of the writers I work with she put her sci-fi book out there and someone who doesn't read sci-fi, doesn't like sci-fi, was like I didn't like this book. And it's like well, yeah, no kidding, you didn't like this book, right? So her mindset, luckily, was well protected by the things you said. She knew exactly who her book was for. She would have never anticipated pleasing this person in a million years and she didn't. And it was like cool, you're not my reader. So I think you're totally spot on.

Speaker 1: 11:16

Yeah, I had kind of a similar experience. My book was selected for the Amazon First Reads thing, which is fantastic and was great. But First Reads has a very broad audience. It's both like broad and also specific. Like these are people who read a lot of books, the people who like to get free books, right, they're in the Amazon prime sphere. A lot of their books are generally commercial. So there's like a certain kind of person.

Speaker 1: 11:39

So my book was out there in this broad swath of people that it wasn't necessarily written for. So I ended up getting a lot of reviews where I had to kind of look and be like okay, this wasn't. You know, this person doesn't read historical, they don't read fantasy or they don't like spice, you know, like, so the book wasn't for them and it's great that the book reached so many people, right. But, like then I had to kind of filter that through my reviews and be like okay, you know, that's going to bring thrilled with what I wrote, and that's okay because I didn't write it for them. And I think the other thing that I would add, like in terms of preparation, I think a lot of times when people are like oh, I want to prepare. Right, I want to prepare. I want to be prepared for my reviews. What they're really thinking is, like I want to have a suit of armor right, like, where's my suit of armor? How do I build my suit of?

Speaker 1: 12:31

The biggest things that you can do for yourself is just like acknowledge that it's going to hurt and like let that be okay. Because I think sometimes we can compound it by thinking, oh, I have to be okay, right, like I have to find a way to be okay with, be strong, be okay with this, have a thick skin, right. And if I don't, then I'm like a weak, pathetic person who like fell for what I knew was coming. Right, and that's just not true. Like it's very human to feel kind of sad when someone doesn't love a thing that you put your heart and soul into. And I do think that, as much as we can try to use all the blockers and like prevent ourselves from seeing reviews like it's eventually going to happen and just acknowledging that, like it might hurt and that's okay, and like you're going to get through it and it's not a reflection of you as a person, the fact that they didn't like it or the fact that you got sad about it right, like that's just. You're just a human being.

Speaker 1: 13:13

And so I think, instead of being like how can I protect myself from the hurt, instead be like okay, what methods do I have in place to move through the hurt? Right, like, what do you know works for you to settle your nervous system? Like who can you turn to for comfort? Who are your cheerleaders who love your book? Who you can be like? Tell me all the reasons you love my book again. Like like, have those tools in place so that, instead of like surrounding yourself with a suit of armor that's not going to work, instead you have what you need to like move through those emotional times, cause it's I mean, it's just hard.

Speaker 2: 13:44

Yeah, and something we talk about in my group and my courses a lot is look at the facts, not the feelings, and like we're allowed to have whatever feelings we want, your readers are allowed to have whatever feelings they want, but what can actually be proven in a court of law? And I don't know if this is me being like a Libra and I'm all about justice and whatever, but I always think like can this be proven in a court of law? So this person didn't like your book and you felt sad about it. Does that mean that you're weak or like a bad writer or anything? No, it could not be proven in court, right? So it's like let us feel the things.

Speaker 2: 14:14

Like you said, we're human and as long as you kind of can't prove it in court, it's like OK, then what can I take from this? A, it's an experience that we all go through. B, is there any nugget of truth I could take from it, or anything that is constructive that maybe I want to do something with and if not, move on, you know. But I have to ask you guys. I wasn't planning to ask you, but I'm sure listeners are like ooh, you guys said you write books. Have you dealt with a negative review experience. Oh yeah, yeah, oh yeah.

Speaker 3: 14:42

Both of us have. Yeah, yeah, both of us have, yeah. So I write why Choose Mafia Romance, which, for anyone who doesn't know, it's one girl with multiple romantic partners in like a polyamory situation. And then mafia romance is usually like violent, and so these books tend to be high octane, high spice. You know, like there's lots of action, there's usually lots of spice, yeah, and there are a couple negative reviews that I've gotten that have really stuck with me.

Speaker 3: 15:08

But the one that always like comes to my mind is someone who left a poor review and then specifically commented on like the content of the book. That was clearly in the content warnings, being like I can't believe this book was so spicy, I can't believe this book was so violent, and it's like very clearly in the content warnings of what the book is. And so that one is like I understand why this content upset you. You also chose to read it, like knowing that the content warning was there and that, to me, is like that's not my ideal reader. So that one actually did hurt when I got it, and that hurt because it was to me it felt like so clearly, clearly, like why would you leave a negative review for a book that you knew you wouldn't like when you started reading it. Yeah, and then like they read it too. They read the whole thing and then commented on like how many bad things were in it and I was like all of that was in the works. But anyway, like yeah, that's gonna happen, it's going to happen.

Speaker 3: 16:03

That one really threw me for a loop because I was definitely like why did you keep reading it? But I like screenshotted it and then immediately sent it to like Emily and a couple of my friends and I was like you got to help me with this one, because I just can't wrap my brain around it. But I need someone to like talk me off a ledge that I'm not a bad person for writing books like this, because that was kind of like the content was like, yeah, how dare someone write something so spicy or something that had so many bad words in it? Yeah, it was a little personal. So, anyway, like I really leaned on my friends and I really leaned on like this is not my adult reader, but I still need to talk this out Because it doesn't need to like affect me as a person. Like I'm a good person, I help lots of people. This content is just a book. You know, it just is a book, we can move on.

Speaker 2: 16:52

Yeah, and it's so funny. I bet there were so many other positive reviews on top of that negative one too.

Speaker 3: 16:56

Absolutely, and it just feels like you. You latch on to like the negative ones but, there's absolutely been, and those positive ones still give you so many warm fuzzies, you know like.

Speaker 1: 17:11

Yeah, mine isn't like a specific one, I think mine was. So, like I was saying, it went out. My book went out through first release was just like this they gave it out for free to people in like the month before it released and I don't actually know how many people got it, because I never actually got that data. But, point being, a bunch of people got it. I didn't know how many people got it. And then, like a few weeks later, there was just this like wave of reviews, right, and because it had been pushed out to this audience that wasn't necessarily my audience, right, all of this, and then I had people. So my book is not standard commercial in a couple of ways. First of all, my main character is not very likable. She's not a great person, but there's a reason for that. Like that's the point. And then, second, is it's dual timeline and so that you know some people don't like that because it's confusing, because you're flipping back and forth in time, and it had like a fair amount of politics. And so there were just like I just got this like wave of reviews that were like this woman is terrible, this book is confusing, I'm so bored.

Speaker 1: 18:14

And it was just like one after the other for like a few days and I was like I'm going to lose my mind and so I just blocked everything. I was like this isn't because I was trying to work on the sequel, and that's like one of the hard things nobody talks about is you're getting all these reviews while you're trying to write the next book and you're like, am I going to live up to people's positive comments? Right, can I give them what they want for the next one? And like, is it even worth it because of all these negative reviews? Right, so you have these like highs and lows.

Speaker 1: 18:42

So I had to just block everything for a while and then I would ask some friends to send me screenshots of the positive comments. And the positive comments were like I love this main character, I love how human she is. I love this main character, I love how human she is, I love how you know like the twists and the complexity you know. And so those reviews were like I get it, I get the story. It just was like the nature of how it got sent out, who it got sent out to, and like the timing of everything was just like this big wave of negative reviews all at once and it was, it was really intense.

Speaker 2: 19:10

But yeah, I just blocked it. It's so funny I wanted to ask you that because I know listeners are like these are book coaches and editors and they work with so many writers and like, look, they still got negative reviews and they still had a hard time. But also it's funny hearing you both talk about the reviews because what some readers really liked, though negative ones didn't like, and it goes back to your thing about writing for the right target audience and knowing who those people are. But also it's funny because I had a writer I worked with who had a similar experience to you, emily, where she was like I cannot look anymore, can you just send me the ones you think I need to see? And so I remember I was like having fun going through and screenshotting all the positives, but you know, those are great ways of coping with the flood.

Speaker 2: 19:51

And speaking of the flood, the same writer she used an influencer tour and I feel like the reviews that came from that were a lot more I don't want to say harsh or critical, but it was like they had a different sort of rating, like they were less likely to give out four and five stars unless it was like the most perfect book that you know. So that was really hard for her too. So I think sometimes it's interesting going into these different things whether it's NetGalley or Amazon, first Reads or influencers or whatever and it's like you have to kind of scope out the field a little bit and know that, yes, it's going to be a mixed bag. Also, we kind of know maybe the influencers and book reviewers are a little bit more judicial or like stingy. Is that what I want to say with the five stars?

Speaker 3: 20:40

Have you seen that too? Yes, have. I think the point you're making is that there's no like consistency to the rating system. Yes, you know. So it's really hard when you get like a three-star review and then someone is like I love this book, right, like, why'd you give it three stars?

Speaker 1: 20:50

you know I saw one today for a book that I just read. This book this morning. It destroyed me, broke me in two and I was looking at the, I was looking at the reviews for it and everyone was like this book broke me in two and like five stars, five stars, five stars. And this woman was like four stars. She was like I need the movie right now but I was like why four stars?

Speaker 2: 21:07

yeah, like it has nothing to do with the book quality like why?

Speaker 3: 21:11

so I think that's something to be aware of when you go into it is that you're going to have people who are like really, really serious about how they rate their books. And there are some people who have like a rubric and you're going to encounter those people that have a rubric and there are some people who are like five stars means that I will buy five copies of this book and never shut up about it. Four stars means that I loved it. Yay, three stars it was good. And then you're like, wait a second, my rating system for me personally, rachel, is like if I like the book, five stars right, you know, I'm only ever giving, I never read it. If it's not five stars, I'm not going to read it.

Speaker 3: 21:55

So I had to do like some calibrating with my own expectations of like what each of the stars mean. Yeah, because number one it's not consistent. So how can you ever calibrate Like you really can't. But number two like I went into it thinking that people who really loved my book would give it five stars. And there are some people who really loved my book and like my series and give it three and four stars and that's like still is okay. So, yeah, I just feel like you have to be aware that people don't have consistency across these ratings, but that doesn't mean that like a four star is any less valuable. You know I had to do like work for me that like a four stars still a really, really good review.

Speaker 2: 22:32

Really good.

Speaker 3: 22:32

Yeah, yeah, and so is the three star. Like, three is great, you know, it's a reminder that it's for them, right?

Speaker 1: 22:38

It's for the reader, it's for them to remember how they liked a book, and so their rating system is for them, and the reviews that they put out are for the other readers out there, and that's so frustrating because it's not something that we can control.

Speaker 2: 22:51

Yeah. What is something that we can use, though, is like take away the stars. You can still use that really great review and like look at it and say, hey, this person loved this, this and this, and you know, put it on your social media, do whatever you want with it, and you don't need to use the three stars if you don't want to. So I think there's a lot of ways to work around it, but I think the key word I've heard both of you say is just be aware, aware that this could happen, because, for the writer I was talking about, I don't think she was aware, and how could she be? It was her first published book, right? But okay, so let's keep going on positive reviews, because, like you said, they don't get enough of our attention, they don't get enough weight. It's all about like, oh, we got this negative review and it hurts, but, like, we get amazing reviews too, every writer is going to get someone that loves their book, and what can we do with that? Oh gosh.

Speaker 1: 23:39

The first thing I would say is try to give it its weight. We don't do that enough right? You read a great review and you're like, okay, great, right. And then you read a terrible review and you're like I'm devastated on the floor in a puddle Like somebody come mop me up, right, and like the reactions are not, they're not equal.

Speaker 1: 23:56

So for me, like I have to remember sometimes to to go and if people don't know this, like you can actually sort your reviews like by star.

Speaker 1: 24:05

So sometimes I'll just like go to Goodreads and just click on the five stars and I'll like read those reviews and that way you're not seeing any of the other ones.

Speaker 1: 24:11

Obviously, you can still click on the other stars if you don't have it blocked, but that's something that I'll do and I try to like reread them right, like multiple times, and try to like actually believe that what the person is saying is true, cause I think our brains put this blocker up, like we're afraid to accept that that feedback might be true or real, especially from our friends and family, right, so like really sitting with it, really, really hearing what they're saying and not letting it just like glaze by, I think is the first step, because we give too much weight to the negative and so try to pull that back yeah, I just talked to someone yesterday who got like it wasn't Kirkus review, but it was a similar thing and they were like I don't know if if they really read it or if they, you know, and they were downplaying, downplaying the review, and I'm like hold on, this is something you paid for.

Speaker 2: 24:57

That someone literally read your book and like they're telling you they liked it and they're calling out specifics. How would they do that if it was fake? You know, yeah, we totally downplay it and we totally discredit, but then the bad reviews mean the world.

Speaker 3: 25:11

Yes, like we need to be rating the five stars like just as heavy, just as valuable, because they are. I mean, I feel like we are not conditioned to take the praise and feel really good about it. We're conditioned to downplay the praise and like highlight the criticisms and overthink it. Yeah, think it worry about it.

Speaker 1: 25:32

This is tangential, but I also think it's important to remember that human nature drives us to share when we are unhappy versus when we are happy. So, like, more people will rate something because they don't like it and will comment on it because they don't like it than the people who do. So there's actually, like, I think if you were to, you know, somehow gather all the data of all the people who read a book, right, like, there's going to be a lot of people who really liked it, who never even made it to the computer to rate it in the first place, and that's going to be outweighed. That's not really on the topic of positive reviews, but that has helped me in the past to be like, okay, I know there's people, right, there's people who read it on first reads that I don't know exist, that never rated it right, like, and so, yeah, yeah, you just want to remember that I think a lot of times like no news is good news.

Speaker 3: 26:21

I mean, I feel like I'm experiencing something very similar to what you're saying, emily, right now, because I have a TikTok doing really, really well and so, like I can see how many people are reading it now compared to like two weeks ago, and it is like incredibly more people that I know are reading it now compared to like two weeks ago, and it is like incredibly more people that I know are reading it now compared to like two weeks ago.

Speaker 3: 26:39

And my reviews have only gone up like like a tiny little bit and I'm like you know what, if they hated it, I would see that, because people are just going to tell me they're just going to leave the comments, but because, like, I can see that people continue to read it in like my analytics Great, we're doing great, you know, and I think like knowing that I'm still reaching people, even though I'm not seeing that reflected in my reviews, still is really valuable to me. I like still makes me feel good, because you don't always see a correlation, like you don't always see that because people are reading it, they are reviewing it, but that still means that you're touching people. You know you're still getting it out there.

Speaker 2: 27:18

And the opposite is kind of true too. Just because you don't see the reviews doesn't mean it's not reaching more and more people. Right, your mouth is a thing. So, yeah, I think that's all great to keep in mind. And something that I have found to be helpful is like keeping a like a folder on your desktop with your screenshots, or on your phone or whatever, and you know when you're having a bad day or you get that one bad review, go back and just browse through your positive reviews. Or sometimes it's helpful, too, to like tell someone that's not in the book world, like, read them your positive review. Like my partner, nathan, sometimes I'll read things out loud and he'll be like, oh my God, I can't believe. That's so nice, you know, and it helps you feel it, because when we read it or we share it with someone else in our world, sometimes it's like, oh cool, great, you know, but someone totally outside will have a great reaction to it, and then you're like, oh okay, I feel pretty good.

Speaker 3: 28:06

Yeah, I think that's really special because, in this exact same vein, I don't think that we tend to highlight, like the successes or the milestones and my husband's always so good about doing that Like I will say, oh, I reached this milestone in page reads or whatever, or in orders or whatever. And then, like he'll buy me a cake, yeah, and I'll just like walk out into the kitchen and like there's a cake and it's like congrats and I'm like, oh my gosh, like, but I don't think we're vocal about it, like it's to me. I almost feel sometimes that if I'm vocal about it, I'm going to jinx it. It's bad cart, like knock on wood.

Speaker 2: 28:40

I don't want to talk about it.

Speaker 2: 28:51

But like no, like you can absolutely share it with your friends and family and like let them support you, support you in like the positive pieces, yeah, and that goes back to having that network, like you said, of whether it's for a good review or a bad review, or just putting yourself out there. In general, it's important to have other people who go through it with you, so super important, okay. So let's kind of just change gears a little bit. Let's say that we're like we think we've got our mindset right. The books out in the world, reviews are coming in. They're both positive and negative. I'm sure we need to practice self-care at this point, right, what do you suggest for this? How do we take care of ourselves as writers with our books out there that are getting reviews?

Speaker 1: 29:33

Oh, I feel like this is such a personal, like it's going to be such a personal answer, because I think for a lot of people it's different.

Speaker 1: 29:39

I've had clients who've just completely blocked Goodreads the week of launch because it was just too much, just too raw right For me. I tried to do that when it first came out, but I was too excited, like I wanted to see how people were reacting to the book, and so, you know, it wasn't until a month or two later, when that wave of reviews came in. I was, you know, kind of away from debut day that I that I was able to block it. So for me I kind of had to be like, okay, I'm going to expose myself to this. So what that means is I'm probably not going to get a whole lot of other stuff done, yeah, and so, like clearing space to allow myself to go on that emotional journey because I chose to write understanding that I didn't have to. I could have blocked it, but I wanted to go on that journey and so not expecting too much of myself in other areas during that time was really helpful.

Speaker 2: 30:27

And then, like you know, I've got all my like nervous system calming methods, yoga, walking, talking to friends like the things that work for me journaling and I know everybody has a different set of those things and so having those on hand, yeah, and you know, I think you just said something important to is a lot of people assume that, like launch week is going to be their busiest week, the week their book gets published. And I always advise people the opposite. I'm like plan to do nothing except like the bare minimum that you have to do or any book related tasks you have to do, because you're going to be burnt out and tired and overwhelmed. Do you guys agree?

Speaker 3: 31:03

Yeah, I think like it's an emotional drain for sure, and when I feel like emotional pressure I tend to get really scattered. So I completely agree, it's really hard for me to focus on anything. I keep on picking up my phone, I keep like half starting. Like Emily and I talked about this, it kind of feels like your wedding day where, like you spend all this time prepping like any milestone, like for me it was our wedding day, but any day you like plan ahead for, like graduation, you know whatever you plan for this, you like get ready for it, you prep for it, and then it's here and it's over.

Speaker 3: 31:47

Yeah, you're like, ok, I'm married now. You know. Like, okay, the book's out. So that was a little weird for me to be like, oh, it was just a day, like it was a very special day. I was really tired, they had highs and lows, but then you just move on and you just keep living. And I say that not to like de-specialize it, but to like normalize a little bit of. You can have whatever reaction to that day you want to have. Because my one of my writing partners hates release day and hates the whole week coming to it and hates the whole week after it. It is just like so anxiety-ridden and so pressure for her and like she really struggles around release day. It's not a fun time for her, but like that's what she's got to experience, like that's what she feels, so she experience, like that's what she feels, so she knows it's coming. She will clear her schedule or she'll recognize like maybe I need to hang out with some friends this week so we can just have a distraction.

Speaker 2: 32:40

Yeah, so I don't have to think about it and on that note, I'm curious, because you guys are both writers what is your relationship like to getting feedback, like through the writing process? And then, because I'm hearing you both talk about what it's like getting the reviews Is that the same or different than getting other kinds of feedback?

Speaker 3: 32:57

I think it makes me feel similarly, but it's totally different. Yeah, that's that's why I think everybody needs space to process. It's like you got to feel whatever it is that you're feeling, but I only ask for feedback from people that I trust and like I don't trust my non-ideal reader reviews, like I don't trust my non-ideal readers I don't, and like I'm so grateful for all my readers, but some of them are not my people, that's okay. But like the people that I share my work with are my people and I deeply trust them. I still have like real reactions, you know, but I know myself pretty well and I also know when, like what phase I'm in in the writing process, whether what kind of feedback that I want.

Speaker 3: 33:38

So, for example, right now I'm writing my third book and I'm not loving it. I'm not loving all parts of it. So when I'm asking for feedback, I'm only asking for positive feedback, because I need tons of encouragement right now. I don't need a critical eye, I don't need like to know what the problems are. It's riddled with problems. Yeah, all I want is like tell me how much you love it and like how wonderful I am and that's really good to the end, yes, I can get to the end, so I can get to the end. So, like with the phase I'm at, I know that getting like critical feedback right now would cause a lot of emotions inside of me, and so I'm only asking for feedback that's going to motivate me right now and that's incredibly helpful, and then when I get to the spot where I'm ready for other kinds of feedback, then I will ask for other kinds of feedback and it still will make me feel a certain way.

Speaker 1: 34:26

Yeah, what about you, emily? Yeah, it's pretty simple, I think. So in all of our sort of coaching programs in our community, our online community, we do a feedback training for folks, for them to be eligible for our feedback partnerships, and that's one of the biggest things that we emphasize is like asking for the feedback that you want, and it's actually a skill, I think, to figure out what feedback you actually want, because oftentimes we self-sabotage and we're like I want to know all of it, I need all of it. I need all of it Because if I don't have all of it, then something's going to, you know, I'm going to miss something or everything's going to fall apart. And so, you know, really emphasizing that, really thinking through, like, what is the feedback that I actually want and need right now?

Speaker 1: 35:05

What is the feedback that's actually going to help me move forward versus get stuck is, you know, it's a feedback partnership, so it's a two way communication street in my head versus you know, reviews is a totally different situation. So when feedback partnerships for me, when I'm having trouble with the feedback that I'm getting if I thought it was what I wanted, but it's actually not, because it's starting to stall me, you know, I'll ask, I'll say please stop doing that. Yeah, I know it's not like it's what I asked for, but now I need you to not do it and like being able to have that trust in that relationship with the people. Giving me feedback is very important to me because if I don't trust that I can tell them that and they won't get like upset about it, then you know that's not a good feedback relationship for for me.

Speaker 2: 35:44

So yeah, that's so interesting. So the reason I'm asking is because I hear that, like you kind of compartmentalize a little in a good way that getting feedback from my writing. I know myself what I need in the moment and also I know the people and it's meant to be constructive and helpful. And then over here it's like I'm getting reviews and they're going to be a mixed bag. I'm still going to feel the things I felt. Maybe it's still scary to put yourself out there and get it, whether it's reviews or feedback. So I'm reiterating for the writers who are like oh, maybe it'll be easier one way or the other and it's like maybe maybe not, but there's tools and there's lenses you can look at things through that make the process easier, and you are both a great example of that.

Speaker 2: 36:25

So super interesting. One thing that came up as you were talking is this idea of like working with, because you said sometimes you'll have to be like hey, stop, I don't need this kind of feedback right now. Sometimes I've seen people who are working with like arc readers, advanced readers, and they are afraid to say that where they're like you know, afraid to say something like don't tag me on social media. If it's not super positive. What are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 3: 36:50

Yeah, okay. So arc reading and all of that. To me at that point the book is like finished, outside of typos. So I will usually ask my arc readers if you notice any typos, tell me and I can fix it. But I'm not interested in anything else. So I set those boundaries up front and then I do ask, like if you have a negative review, don't tag me, but post it. I mean, I think that's really the biggest guideline is that we can't, we don't want to, we shouldn't censor our readers, we shouldn't tell like, put stipulations around the review that they give you, but you are absolutely allowed to say I don't want to see it, I don't need to see it, please don't tag me in it. And I also think that most of the book community understands that that is an unspoken rule. Yeah, it's like etiquette. I think that's pretty fair etiquette. There are people who do it and like that's not fun, it's not, don't do that. Yes, don't do that.

Speaker 1: 37:48

Don't tag authors in bad reviews. It's there's no reason to do that. It's not, doesn't help anybody, but I do think it's important to note that it does happen Right, and so that's why when I was like it doesn't matter how thick your suit of armor is, right, like it's still, you're going to get smacked in the face with a tag and a bad review that you didn't want, didn't expect and don't think that person should have tagged you in and and don't think that person should have tagged you in and yet they did. And so, like having the tools to walk through that emotion are really important, because you can't control that. You cannot control other people.

Speaker 2: 38:15

As much as we wish we could yes. And I think the other key word you said is boundaries and communicating. You know, telling someone what you want, a lot of people will not, and then they're surprised and it's like, well, it is a two-way street, no matter how you look at it yeah, I think.

Speaker 3: 38:29

I think authors are allowed to have that boundary. It doesn't matter, like, how much someone sings your praises. If they're gonna put out something that like affects you in a certain way, you block them, that's okay. If that's what you want, you can always, like take some time to process, unblock them. But I think if you're gonna tag someone in something not positive or they're gonna see, see it, you don't have to see it.

Speaker 1: 38:52

And I think that's where that boundary of reviews are not for you, like they are not about you. They are not for you, they're not for you to engage with, positive or negative, in my opinion, because that's the reader space, right, and we don't want them in our space and so we should stay out of their space.

Speaker 2: 39:09

Yeah, and I think something on that note that's helpful to think about and all of the listeners can do this little mindset exercises, just like think about yourself when you're leaving a review, like what is your intention? Is it to speak directly to the author or is it to speak to other readers? Most of the time, it's probably going to be like I love this book or I felt this way, you should read it. If you like or don't like this, you know. Sometimes I think if we get out of our own heads, it can help change the relationship we have to reviews and feedback.

Speaker 3: 39:39

Yeah, and I think it's totally OK to engage in the positive Like. If someone tags me in a positive review, I believe that they want me to see it.

Speaker 1: 39:46

Yeah, I'm going to be like yes, that's totally right, like thank you, I'm not going to comment on Goodreads, right, exactly. I am not more what I mean, I'm not going to go in that space.

Speaker 3: 39:56

Yeah, yes, absolutely. But I want people to know, like I think I do. Sometimes authors get really worried about how they can interact in the review space and like it's not your job to try to correct anybody. It's not your job to engage in a negative review it's not. But again, they're not about you. But if you're engaging with a reader who loves your book, that's incredible, that's wonderful.

Speaker 1: 40:16

Yeah, that's why we're here.

Speaker 3: 40:18

That's why we're here. I love the relation. My favorite thing about the author journey is the relationships that I've built with readers, with other writers, and so I love connecting with like people who love to read my books.

Speaker 2: 40:30

That's always okay, yeah, and I mean usually that's who your book was meant for. So talk about a win, win. Win for everybody, right?

Speaker 3: 40:36

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 40:41

Yeah, that's so cool, so all right. So we've talked about kind of mentally and emotionally preparing yourself and knowing that it's going to feel how it feels, no matter what you do and how thick you think your skin is, and having that self-care and grace and compassion as you go through it. We've talked about some practical things you can do when you get positive and negative reviews. Is there anything else you two would like to add on this topic?

Speaker 1: 41:00

The only thing that's kind of been itching the back of my mind is I'm sure this isn't everybody, but for me I have a tendency to self-sabotage, like I did notice when I was having trouble drafting my sequel that I would be like in the middle of a scene and be like struggling to write a scene right, and I'd be like this scene sucks. And then I would go look at my negative videos for book one and it was like. It was like you know how your fingers just do the little twitch thing. Like, instead of going to instagram, all of a sudden, I was in my one star reviews on Goodreads. Don't do that and first of all, like, like, look for the ways in which cause I've noticed that there are other people in my life who do this when they're in a bad, negative space, they go look for confirmation that they should be in that bad negative space, and we do it subconsciously, and so I guess my my tip would be to like, look for any places where you're doing that and I think we do it with feedback too, right, like, for instance.

Speaker 1: 41:54

Let's say, a writer is working on a project. It's their zero draft, they're very excited about it, but they feel nervous about it and they send it to people and they like, don't specify what feedback they want, because they're hoping that that person will be like oh, this is amazing and perfect, that's just asking to be taken, you know, like it's just, it's self-sabotage, in my opinion, to do things like that, because you're like waiting for the other shoe to drop, you know, for that excitement to die, or for somebody to tell you that you're on their own track, or or anything like that. So I think that feedback and reviews can be used in that way a lot of times, often, like I said, subconsciously. So just a tip to be aware of that.

Speaker 2: 42:29

Yeah, that's so interesting Because I can do that too. I feel like I have that instinct almost, and maybe most of us do. But I feel like when I heard you say that, I'm like if I were your coach, I'd be like, okay, you can do that, but then for every negative, look at a positive, you know, at least balance it out if you're going to go there. Yeah, I just blocked it.

Speaker 1: 42:47

Yeah, okay, so helping me get my draft done.

Speaker 2: 42:51

One speaking of drafting. Last question for you guys Do you use what's in the reviews to inform drafts? Is there anything you would advise in that realm? Or is it just like we want to be hands off?

Speaker 3: 43:04

That's tricky, I think, for me. I tried not to do that for negative reviews, but I tried to do that for positive reviews. So the criticisms that I would see about that book, I would try really hard to not let that influence my decisions about the second book because, like, I really wanted to learn how to like, I wanted to trust in my own decisions. But when people are like, oh, I really loved the tension between these two characters, I loved you, you know their relationship Then I'd be like me too More. You know, like that's what I would take. I would take, like the good stuff. Let me do more of that, the good stuff that people loved, like, how could I capitalize on that If they really wanted? You know they can't wait to see these two characters again. Let me give them what the people are asking for. Like that, give the people what they want. Give the people what they want, but not necessarily to be like oh, they complained about this thing, let me change it. Yeah, because that's one person's opinion.

Speaker 1: 43:59

Yes, yes, yeah I know better.

Speaker 3: 44:01

I'm gonna be for real. I think the author knows better than like whatever negative reviews.

Speaker 1: 44:06

That totally so I try not to let that influence the important story pieces, you know, yeah so I feel like there's maybe a difference between my approach to the sequel and then my approach to a new series, because I think for a sequel, right, if I looked at all those negative reviews that were like oh, it's too confusing and like I don't like the timelines and this person is terrible and I had like written you know, because of those I had changed my book. It would have been a totally different book, yeah, and that's like not the positive reviews.

Speaker 1: 44:36

Yeah, 100%, because those people were there for the complexity and the morally grayness and all of that. So I don't think that it really impacted how I wrote the sequel. But I will say it's been interesting thinking about what I wanted to publish next and like what project I wanted to work on next and how I wanted to take what I had learned from the first two. And I think that those, the reviews, kind of factored into that. And so just to kind of explain what I mean by that for the positive reviews, it was really interesting to look at like where they all intersected, right. Like what do they like about what I do, right? What do they like about the books that I write and my style and the way that I approach storytelling, and so looking through those actually helped me figure out like what is my brand.

Speaker 1: 45:19

Yeah, you know what I mean, because it's like hard to look at yourself and like see what a lot of people are liking about your books, and so when you can kind of cross-reference those things, I think that can be helpful. And then from the negative side you know some of that too it's like okay, well, if a lot of people found this complex, it was too complex to follow. You know, like, how could I maybe simplify the world of my next book, or how could I maybe take some of that? But it wasn't like a oh no, my book is terrible because it was too complex. Now I must do the most simplistic thing in the world, right? It's more of just like a. What direction do I want to take? Like, I have readers now, right, I've got readers who love my work and readers who don't love my work, and where do I want to? How do I want to take that into consideration when I'm kind of continuing my writer journey on the next stories that I write?

Speaker 2: 46:01

Yeah, sounds like your brain's looking at it almost like data and you can do whatever you want with that data, so that's really cool. I like hearing about how you're looking at it for the series that the first book's in, as well as what you're going to do next, and I think you said a key word, which is patterns you want to see. It's not just about one person's review, although I'll say it can be about one person's positive review. We can take that all we want, but it's about what are the things that multiple people found, and then what do you want to do with them? You don't have to do anything, but what do you want to do? So I think that's going to be super helpful for people to hear about.

Speaker 3: 46:35

I think the last thing I would say is that we've touched on community and we've, like, touched on having other people that you trust, but reviews are a uniquely author thing. Like no one's going to get it more than like another writer.

Speaker 3: 46:47

So when I leaned really heavily on that and like you process a lot when you get positive and negative reviews, and some of it is like really challenging to process, you know the fact of like oh my God, how could they say this?

Speaker 3: 46:59

But also like there are sometimes people who comment on your books that don't know anything about what they're commenting on, you know, and they're like trying to leave a really smart review and you're like wait a second, am I crazy? So I just think that like having like a support system you can trust, that like you can talk to, is invaluable for all parts of the author journey. But authors get it and like this is not something I would necessarily talk in depth with or process in depth with with like a reader, even though they're a really close friend or I've made a lot of really close friends they don't understand what it's like to be an author. So I do think sometimes you'll have to even draw boundaries and like who do you process this with? Because they're people who are going to get it and they're people who don't have a shared experience and so they don't, they don't fully understand.

Speaker 2: 47:44

Yeah, and especially if you're someone who's a little sensitive to the idea of getting feedback, like as you were saying that. I'm thinking of all the free groups on Facebook and it's like, yes, they might be full of authors or writers, but that's still a dangerous zone because not all of them have published and some might be jealous of what you've done and that might color the feedback. So you do have to be really specific and careful about who you're including in that circle of trust. Yeah, yeah, we know you have a great community, so I will link to that in the show notes, as well as all the places we can find you around the internet. But thank you both so much for being here today and we will definitely have to have you back in the future.

Speaker 1: 48:21

Thank you so much. It's always such a pleasure to chat with you.

Speaker 2: 48:24

All right. So that's it for this episode of the Fiction Writing Made Easy podcast. Head over to savannahgilbocom forward slash podcast for the complete show notes, including the resources I mentioned today, as well as bonus materials to help you implement what you've learned. And if you're ready to get more personalized guidance for your specific writing stage whether you're just starting out, stuck somewhere in the middle of a draft, drowning in revisions, or getting ready to publish, take my free 30-second quiz at savannahgilbocom forward slash quiz. You'll get a customized podcast playlist that'll meet you right where you're at and help you get to your next big milestone. Last but not least, make sure to follow this podcast in your podcast player of choice, because I'll be back next week with another episode full of actionable tips, tools and strategies to help you become a better writer. Until then, happy writing.