Speaker 1: 0:00

The thing is that validation from a publisher comes with a giant asterisk anyway. If they buy a book, it doesn't mean you're a great writer, and if they turn down your book, it doesn't mean you're not a great writer. It just means they don't think they can sell it. They're out for the money. That's what they want. It's a business and I knew it, which is why, like I said, this is why a D-list celebrity can sell a memoir, but I can't. It doesn't mean it's any good. It just means people are curious about their lives. I just had to give myself that validation, or at least let it come from the people who actually read the books.

Speaker 2: 0:32

Welcome to the Fiction Writing Made Easy podcast. My name is Savannah Gilbo and I'm here to help you write a story that works. I want to prove to you that writing a novel doesn't have to be overwhelming, so each week, I'll bring you a brand new episode with simple, actionable and step-by-step strategies that you can implement in your writing right away. So, whether you're brand new to writing or more of a seasoned author looking to improve your craft, this podcast is for you. So pick up a pen and let's get started. In today's episode, I'm sharing a conversation with Michael Jammin, who is a screenwriter turned memoirist, and whose book A Paper Orchestra not only debuted at number one in six different categories on Amazon, but was also just named one of Vulture's best comedy books of 2024. And you're in for a real treat today, because Michael doesn't hold anything back. He shares both the highs and lows of writing this book, including what it was like to have his book die on submission, why he chose to self-publish it despite having an agent, and how he made the transition from writing for TV to writing a book. He also talks about how difficult it was to find his own voice after so many years of writing for TV and shares his unique approach to marketing and showing up on social media in a real and authentic way. I know you're going to love this episode. But real quick, before we dive in, I want to read you the back cover copy of Michael's book to give you some context for our conversation. So this is what it says on the back cover of A Paper Orchestra by Michael Jammin. It says In his debut collection of personal essays, emmy-nominated screenwriter Michael Jamin recounts the true stories of a sensitive, anxious man searching for the things that are most important—identity, love, forgiveness and redemption.

Speaker 2: 2:19

Across between David Sedaris and Neil Simon, michael discovers his unlikeliest moments of growth. He fakes his way onto a college football team to experience a moment of grace, breaks up with a woman because she can't stop saying just kidding, gets caught lying during a Hollywood power meeting and takes advantage of the pandemic lockdown to repair his relationship with his daughters. Audaciously funny, yet achingly poignant, a Paper Orchestra will have you rethinking the smallest, almost forgotten moments of your life, and we will, of course, link to the book and where you can find Michael around the internet. But without further ado, let's dive into my conversation with Michael Jammin about his book A Paper Orchestra. Hi Michael, thank you so much for joining me on the Fiction Writing Made Easy podcast today. I'm so excited to have you here.

Speaker 1: 3:08

Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure.

Speaker 2: 3:10

I introduced you in the beginning of this episode. Butavis and Butthead, just Shoot Me.

Speaker 1: 3:26

Rules of Engagement Out of Practice. Wilfred Marin Brickleberry, tacoma FD, I've sold a ton of pilots and a couple of movies, but most recently now I have a book out called the Paper Orchestra.

Speaker 2: 3:40

Yes, which is what we're here to talk about today. That's very exciting. It just came out last year, right yeah, Congratulations on that. But I actually want to take you back in time and talk a bit about your whole writing, editing and publishing journey. So the first thing that I'm curious about is what made you want to make the shift from writing for TV to writing a book a book.

Speaker 1: 4:01

Well, first, people don't quite understand that, as a TV writer, people always say to me oh, you should do a show about this, you should do about that. And I'm like you have no idea how any of this works. I don't write what I want to write, I write what people pay me to write, because this is how I make a living. I don't decide what I write about, and so, which is great, I'm not complaining, it's a good way to make a living.

Speaker 2: 4:36

But after a while I wanted to write what I wanted to write, and that meant writing a book and writing whatever I wanted to write, without network notes, without listening to one of David Sedaris' books, which inspired you to tackle this project, in a way, and you said one of your first mistakes was like I write for TV. How hard can this be? Do you want to talk about that a little more? And just like, what was it like when you first started to tackle this project?

Speaker 1: 5:01

Well, I told my wife I was feeling kind of down about just the industry as a whole and just not being able to write what I wanted to write. And I told her one day I'm thinking of writing a collection of personal essays. But if I did, it would take me years to write and even if I sold it I'd barely make any money. And she said, oh, you have to, because if you do you'll find yourself. So I was like, okay, so I had her support and so, yeah, I'd listened to all of David, or many of his audio books, but I hadn't read him yet. So I went online and I ordered all his paperbacks and I'm thinking, yeah, how hard is this going to be. I am a writer and I'm reading one of the first story and I'm halfway through it. I'm like, where's he going with this about? And he got to the end of the story and it was such a surprising and beautiful ending I almost threw the book across the room.

Speaker 1: 5:51

I was like this is going to be so much harder than I thought, and so that was then I really got to work. First. I read everything of his three times first to enjoy it, because reading it is actually different experience than listening to it. And then, and then I read it, and then I read, reread it and you it, and I just tried to learn a new genre.

Speaker 2: 6:06

Yeah, and I love that you did that, because I also like that part about the article you wrote and you said you really took the time to study it and see, like, how do I put together this memoir, this collection of short stories or essays, whatever you want to call it, can you talk about? Because this is something I tell writers to do as well, like pick apart your favorite stories. If there's a technique you like, a cliffhanger, you like whatever it is, you can study that and then make the practice of using it in your own books.

Speaker 2: 6:31

So, can you talk about, like how you found that valuable or how studying someone else's work allowed you to kind of live in that process and create your own book?

Speaker 1: 6:40

Yeah Well, at first I would think, like, what do I like about his writing? What does he have any techniques that I could maybe incorporate? And it like I wasn't able to learn too much from reading him. I was like it didn't really unfold, the like when I read a script, I can take it apart and I can make better sense of it, but his writing is a little different and so it wasn't like.

Speaker 1: 7:00

Anyway, I started writing because, as a TV writer, I'm a mimic, so my job is to get the voice of the show or the voice of the characters, and I'm good at that. But I didn't know what my voice was, and I didn't need to, because I set them aside for a couple of weeks and I read them with fresh eyes and I hated them and to me it sounded like I was trying to sound like David Sedaris. It felt like a pale imitation of what he does. And then I said, all right, we got to throw this all out. And then it really became a whole questioning process of like.

Speaker 1: 7:40

But everyone acknowledges that he's like the gold standard. Who am I to write differently when this is how it's supposed to be done? Well, but that's the problem. Like that's your obligation as a writer, or else you're just being a knockoff or, you know, no one wants to be a knockoff, and so first I had to give myself permission that it was okay to have my voice, and then my voice really went back on. I really returned to my training as a screenwriter in terms of how I structured stories. I structure them very similar to the way I would make a TV show novel that has like 40 scenes.

Speaker 2: 8:25

Whatever it is treating each of your scenes or each of your short stories or essays like, it has its own little structure and it creates that arc of change from beginning to end can make a way more powerful story. So it's interesting to hear you talk about that as well.

Speaker 2: 8:34

Well, the thing is, he writes essays and as I was writing mine, I'm realizing, you know, I'm not really writing personal essays, I'm really writing short stories, that are true, so there's that difference as well, yeah, which is kind of a big deal to you know, as you're looking at something that you're doing and something that someone else has done. Sometimes it's also about understanding what are the differences and how can I use like that difference or that realizing something's different to my advantage, instead of saying like I have to do it, just like this person did, Speaking of voice. So this is something that a lot of people just find to be this super nebulous thing. They're like I don't know what my voice is. I don't even know how to find my voice. What did you do to get to that point where you're like this feels like me.

Speaker 1: 9:16

First I was writing and then I'd get to a point I would write a line or a moment in a story and I go, that doesn't feel real. That feels like the TV version of what happened. What's the true version? Dive deeper into myself. What was I really thinking when I said this? Because this was so interesting, the stories are true. And I think back like, well, why would a 10-year-old me have said or done that? And I have to think about the same way I write for a character on TV. Why would this character say that? Well, why would I have said that? And then I had to really go inside and get to the truth of how I felt. And by speaking truthfully you get to your voice and then by amping it up, maybe like 10%.

Speaker 2: 9:55

Yeah, I think that's so cool and it's funny because for you having you're writing about yourself, it's almost like you had to dig into the worldview of what was your worldview at 10 or at 20 or at 30, whatever and that's what we have to do with fictional characters as well. So super interesting. I think people are going to like hearing you say that the first version I wrote was kind of like a pale imitation of David Sedaris, or it was like something that felt more like me writing for TV, Because people do that. People ask me all the time I wrote something and it's so cheesy or it's so on the nose and it's like that's okay, it's your first draft and then it's just doing the work and figuring out how to make it better.

Speaker 1: 10:31

Right.

Speaker 2: 10:32

They're going to love hearing that you said that, oh, the first draft not showing your first draft to anybody. No one should think that your first draft is good enough to show to anybody, like that's how you get better, right yeah, you have to get it out to make it better. And so the other thing I think they're going to like hearing is you said when you got to the end of your book, you had to go back to the beginning, to your not your first job, but a draft further along. You had to go back to the beginning because you noticed that your writing had improved, your style had changed. I find this to be really true as well, for the writers I work with is that in the beginning it's kind of like 1.0 of their voice, their style, their structure, whatever, and then by the end they've reached like this is what we want it to be. So they go back to the beginning and they have a lot more editing to do on the beginning typically than the end. So do you want to talk about that a little bit?

Speaker 1: 11:18

Well, and that I totally agree, and that's why it's so important. People say I wrote a screenplay or I wrote a book or whatever. And then what do I do? I'm like write another one and then write another one, another one, write five, Because when you finish your fifth book or a screenplay, then go back and revisit your first one and you'll see how much you've grown as a writer, instead of spending 10 years of life polishing this one. Work right. Five different works. Work right, Five different works.

Speaker 2: 11:43

Yeah, totally, I'm on that same page and it's, you know, the first thing we produce. A lot of the times it's like our book baby, or a script baby. It's the thing that we really love, and people will waste 10 years on that same thing instead of coming back to it with fresh eyes and then making that version match what's in their head. So I love that. You just said that and I think people are going to latch onto that. So then let's fast forward a little bit. You're done with the book and you're like okay, so at this point I need to do something with it. What were your publishing goals? Like right, when you finished it?

Speaker 1: 12:13

Well, I wanted to get it traditionally published because I just thought like, I thought like that's the feather in the cap, that's the stamp of approval from somebody who, from a decision maker.

Speaker 1: 12:22

Right we do. They're in new york, and so I told him what I was doing. He goes, let me arrange a phone call. So he set up a phone call with this book agent in new york, now that he didn't have to sign me as a writer, but he did have to take the call because I am a client, right. So I told him what I was doing. He goes well, send me some pieces, okay, great. So I emailed him.

Speaker 1: 12:50

I maybe like three or four stories and uh, I didn't hear back from for months, like easily six months, and I didn't even back from him for months like easily six months, and I didn't even care. I'm still writing this thing. I had to finish the rest of the book. So what difference does it make? I'm not ready anyway. Six months later he calls me. He's like out of the blue. He's like I'm so sorry, it took me this long. If I had known, do you have any more? I go yeah, I'm almost done, here's the rest of the, here's the book. And at that point he was like let's do it, I love it, let's sell it, let's just take it out. And I was like you don't have notes, like nope, let's sell it. So we took it out to publishers and I got you know. Within a couple of weeks I was rejected by all of them. No-transcript can sell a memoir even though they didn't even write the damn thing, because they have that following.

Speaker 1: 14:07

They probably even read their memoir and we know this is true. So I started going on social media and just talking about my experiences as a TV writer and by doing that I built up a really very large following pretty fast on Instagram and TikTok and Facebook and all those platforms. And then at that point I was like, well, why do I need a publisher? Like, what did they bring to the table? Well, they'll help you. You know they'll get you in Barnes and Noble. Okay, but no one goes to Barnes and Noble anymore. You know people buy their books online. You know they can do that. What else can they do? Well, though, that's kind of it. They don't really help you market the book. They expect you to market the book, which is why they say platform drives acquisition. They don't sell the book, they expect the author to sell the book.

Speaker 1: 14:52

I'm like, okay, but you're getting most of the money for the. I just know it. It would have been very low. So I was like I didn't. I didn't see the benefit, other than like they make a lot of publishers make a lot of decisions. The title they can influence the title, they can influence the cover of the book, and those are things I didn't want to actually compromise, cause I all along I was talking to people in the publishing industry and they'd say well, this is what I would change, this is how I would do it differently to sell more books. To sell more books and I'm like you all have a valid point Like the title of my book is a paper orchestra. What does that really mean? Well, when you read the book you'll understand what it means. But the title they wanted me to have was like something wacky because I'm a sitcom writer something jokity McJoke joke.

Speaker 1: 15:33

And I was like but that's not the book I want to put out. I don't want to write that book. This is the book I wanted to write. So every step of the way I was like because none of this was a money-making venture for me. They wanted it to be money. I get why they wanted to make money, but it wasn't for me. To me, it was just about writing something good. And so at the end I was like, well, I have to put it out myself. There's really no reason I can't sell it to them.

Speaker 2: 15:56

Yeah, and I think this is a common thing a lot of authors these days are facing is they think that if they sign with a traditional publisher and they get an agent and all these things, that the marketing is going to be taken care of and they'll skyrocket to success. And that's just not true. And so then it becomes okay. Well, what are my other options? And it's indie publishing, which I think personally is a great option. I'm with you. I would love creative control over my own stuff and you know we all have the power to skyrocket ourselves to success.

Speaker 2: 16:24

But something you said in that Substack piece which we're going to link to in the show notes, is that even after realizing all of this and coming to that decision of traditional publishing is not for me. You had that little glimmer of like. I still crave that approval and this is super common. Like all the writers I talk to, they do the research you've done, they've weighed the pros and cons and they still want that validation. So can you talk about that a little more and maybe offer aspiring authors who are listening to this podcast any words of wisdom on dealing with those feelings?

Speaker 1: 16:56

The thing is that validation from a publisher comes with a giant asterisk. Anyway, it doesn't mean you're a great writer. If they buy a book, it doesn't mean you're a great writer. And if they turn down your book, it doesn't mean you're not a great writer. It just means they don't think they can sell it. They're out for the money. That's what they want.

Speaker 2: 17:11

It's a business, yeah no-transcript won some awards, which we'll talk about in a second. But let's go back to where you were like okay, I needed to build this platform either way because I was going to be responsible for marketing my book and finding readers. I feel like some listeners might be thinking well, okay, this guy like has connections in TV, he's written for TV. How can I build a platform when, like, I don't feel the same as this guy?

Speaker 1: 18:08

Do you have any thoughts on that? Absolutely so. When I go on Instagram or TikTok and I talk about writing, sometimes I talk about how I process and you know, and that is valuable because I'm a writer, a TV writer, so I can share stuff that maybe they don't know. But if I were like a 22 year old woman just out of college, she can talk about on social media what it's like to be a 22 year old woman and the struggles that she has on a daily basis way more authentically than I can from her point of view. And so that's what you share about. You share authentically, from your perspective, of all the hard stuff you're going through, like I think your early twenties is like the hardest time of your life. So share all that stuff and your struggles and that's interesting, it's interesting for anyone. If you can, if you can do it well, and if you can't do it well, then then you might not be a good writer, you know. That's the problem.

Speaker 2: 18:52

So yeah, and it's interesting too, because sometimes, like you've talked about this struggle and we'll dig into this a little bit more but you've talked about the struggle of people see you one way and you kind of want them to see you as I'm an artist, I'm an author, and so you had to shift a little bit of your tactics on how you approach social media and building your platform and stuff like that. As true, with the authors I work with, where they'll approach it by sharing writing tips or a peek behind the process, whatever, and then they attract other writers, not necessarily the readers. So I tend to tell people okay, well, how do we give potential followers, readers whatever, the same vibe that your book is giving them? If you're writing romance, how do we give them those happily ever after feelings? Or if you're writing a thriller, what can we share? That kind of gives the reader that experience and attracts them.

Speaker 2: 19:40

And I think that's something like we could say about your platform. Maybe is that the vibe of your book, which is it's funny, but it's also like poignant, right, and there's a niceness to it, like an I'm an every man kind of vibe. That's how you show up on social media, so the energy is matching. Have you thought about it that way?

Speaker 1: 20:00

Originally, this is a problem. You know that. My daughter pointed out Because, like I said, I don't want to be seen as a screenwriting guru or as a writing expert. So I did create a podcast it's called Unwritten, by Michael Jammin, and I post once a week. And so this week I posted about hey, I'm working on a story. And. And so this week I posted about hey, I'm working on a story. And this is the problem I'm going through creating, writing this story. So they think of me not as a teacher, but I'm a writer. I'm just like you. This is the problem I'm facing. On my website, I describe all my work. My neighbor helped me with this because she's in marketing, or she was. She said if you had to describe yourself three words, what would it be in your work? I said, well, clever, vulnerable. And what was the other?

Speaker 1: 20:39

one, I don't know, it might've been introspective maybe, or something like that.

Speaker 2: 20:42

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 20:42

And so all of my work is that. So when I'm sharing my, when I'm talking on, I'm trying to be funny, I'm trying to make you laugh, I'm trying to give you a laugh, or I'm trying to, and all of it is authentic. And people sometimes people say, oh, he's so humble. No, I'm just telling you the truth, man, I'm not going to be something, I'm not.

Speaker 2: 20:58

that's the difference and I think almost that takes a layer of stress out of it, in a way like if you could just show up and be yourself and people resonate with it. It doesn't mean you're like pushing your book every day or being sales or marketing, and that's what I think a lot of writers feel like. If I have to build this platform, I have to be a marketing genius or salesy or whatever, and it's like not really. That's not really what's going to work.

Speaker 1: 21:19

Yeah, it's not, you know, but I have to say, like when I first started pushing the book, when I came out and I was talking about it and then I don't talk about all the time I you know maybe one out of every five posts or 10 or whatever like that and then some guy was like, hey, I about it. Now I said, well, I could see why you'd be tired and I did a post about this. I could see why that would turn you off. That's getting old I go. But just so you know me, being on this platform is the only reason why I'm on here.

Speaker 2: 21:47

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 21:47

So if I'm not selling books, like then forget it, I'll go away and do something else, because that's the literally why I'm here and I'm just being honest with everybody. And then people bought books, yeah.

Speaker 2: 21:56

It's so funny. Yeah, just a little honest peek behind the scenes.

Speaker 1: 21:59

Yeah, I'm not here because I love posting every day.

Speaker 2: 22:03

Yeah, I think a lot of the fellow writers who are listening to this will be like yeah, us too. We don't love being glued to Instagram. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 22:09

Right.

Speaker 2: 22:22

But so, as a result of kind of all this marketing effort, I know you've built the platform, you've guested on podcasts and done all these things, but I know that your book Paper Orchestra debuted at number one on Amazon Bestseller in multiple categories and then recently it won the Readsie Discovery Editor's Choice Award and Vulture named it as one of the best comedy books of 2024, which is amazing.

Speaker 1: 22:34

Yeah, that was really cool because I don't have the weight of a publisher behind me. It's because someone one of my followers started, you know, read my book and loved it and he wrote he writes for a vulture. And I was like, damn, that's, that's really cool.

Speaker 2: 22:47

Yeah, it's so cool and I love that. It just shows how your efforts worked out, because if you had not been showing up and being, you know, your humble, honest and authentic self, those results might not have happened. Right, if you'd been too scared to start the platform, too scared to talk about your book, which a lot of people are, where a lot of us artists are introverts.

Speaker 1: 23:09

So I think that's super cool. Yeah, I'm introvert as well. I don't like. Yeah, none of this is I'd prefer not to talk on. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 23:17

Yeah, but it's important to getting your story out there. So, before I pivot cause I do want to pivot and ask you some questions about actually writing writing a book or a screenplay or whatever Is there anything else you want to share, just about like your book or their journey from unpublished to published?

Speaker 1: 23:33

Well, one of the things that I love about David Sedaris is that he tours and he performs. He goes from city to city I've seen him a number of times and then afterwards he signs and sells books and all that I go. Yeah, that's part of what I wanted to do, and so now that's what I get to do. So we're touring as a one-man show. I have shows in Seattle coming up in February four shows and then one show in Berkeley, california, and then we're doing the Hollywood Fringe Festival in June and then maybe Edinburgh Fringe Festival in June. So, yeah, but that's part of the fun is that I get to turn it into a one-man show and perform it, because I've been behind that camera for 28 years. So it's like now.

Speaker 1: 24:11

I can, and it's a whole different skill set that I have to learn.

Speaker 2: 24:15

That's awesome and probably a little scary. I know you just said you're an introvert, so does that come into play? Like how do you manage that? Or is it all just about resting afterwards?

Speaker 1: 24:30

Yeah, it's about like afterwards people want to talk to me, Some people want to hug me and I'll take pictures, that's sure. And then like hey, come out for drinks with me. That's the no. I want to go home and sit in a room in the dark, Like it's just too much for stimulation for me.

Speaker 2: 24:39

Yeah, I know that's how I am too. I'm fine doing the public things, but then I need to rest and balance myself out.

Speaker 1: 24:45

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 24:46

So, okay, I want to pivot this a little bit, because originally I did plan on talking to you about more like how do we write for screenplays versus TV or versus books, things like that. But then I read on your sub stack that you're like I don't want to be viewed always as this how-to person, but I also can't I can't really not ask you about writing a little bit of comedy, because this is a question I get asked. A lot is like how do we add a layer of comedy into our books? How do we write characters that are funny? Do you have any tips on that?

Speaker 1: 25:16

because this I'm not well versed in how to help people with that well, the thing is, if someone's not funny, if they're not naturally funny, it's like it's not something you can just do, and the problem problem is when people get into it. If they're not naturally funny person don't write comedy, it's okay. Write drama, there's a huge audience for that.

Speaker 1: 25:33

The problem is when people who are not funny try to write comedy and then they they put what we call in the business clams. They put jokes in the script that are not theirs. Said no one ever. That's a clam. I didn't have that on my 2025 bingo card. That's a clamp. These are jokes that we hear on the internet that are not our own, and we just hear them and so we feel like we can put them into our writing. But you can't. You cannot do that. It's the job of the writer to find new ways to say old things, not to rip off the internet and put into it. No one's going to laugh at it, they're just going to think you're unoriginal. You know, uh, I'm switching you to. Decaf said no one ever like these are all clams and you just cannot put it in your work.

Speaker 2: 26:18

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 26:18

But if you think you have the funny bone and people say, hey, you're funny, then the way strong attitudes are always funny. So if you talk about the soup how was the soup? It was okay that's not funny. No, if the soup was the most glorious soup you've ever had, that can be funny, because that's an extreme. This was the worst soup I've ever tasted like dog shit, right.

Speaker 2: 26:44

That's going to be funny because it's an extreme. But when the soup is okay, it's not funny, right? And it's kind of same with characters. When they're bland and boring, they're not interesting. They don't even have the capability of being funny or dramatic because they're just blah. But you also, I know on I think it was on your Instagram you talked about how, like the comedy in a character comes from who that character is too. So you have to do the work to develop them, and it's not just like giving this person jokes or choosing to give this other person jokes. It's like it has to come from who they are, their worldview, how they approach things, what they believe and how that either complements or contrasts what other characters believe and do. Right, yes, exactly.

Speaker 1: 27:19

Yeah, it's not, they're not trying it. A character is never trying to be funny and when you see that it's always cringy, the character is just being themselves. And when you see that it's always cringy, the character is just being themselves. And you know, when Larry David's funny on Curb your Enthusiasm, it's because he's saying exactly what he's thinking and he's like you shouldn't be saying any of that and he's judgmental and he's not forgiving and that's all funny.

Speaker 2: 27:40

Yeah, and I think it is hard to write comedy.

Speaker 1: 28:00

I don't know if you would agree. But I think for the writers I work with it's one of the harderliner has to be funny in order for the story to be funny. So if you pitch the logline and it's not funny, then the story won't be funny. You just can't make it funny. You can put all the jokes you want into it, but the core of it is not a funny idea.

Speaker 2: 28:17

Right, and we talk about writing loglines a lot on this podcast and how they're beneficial for so many reasons. But you just added a new layer to it that if you can't see the comedy or the whatever feeling right, the drama, the romance, whatever, it's not going to work.

Speaker 2: 28:31

Right right, okay, so thanks for indulging me with that. And then I guess my last question for you is if you were to just give advice either to your younger self, before you started writing this book, or any other aspiring author who is either about to start their writing journey or is maybe in the middle of the messy middle of their first book, what advice would you give them?

Speaker 1: 28:53

Well, I would say it's supposed to take a long time. So when I was in college, I was rejected from the creative writing program twice and I was devastated. I was like it felt like at the age of 19 or 20, whatever it was that they were saying no, you don't get to be a writer. And I wanted to be a writer and I felt like they were just ruling out my future. Fortunately, I didn't listen to them and so moved to LA, studied screenwriting, became a TV writer and then when I finished this book and my agent called and say he loved it right, is this before we submitted it to publishers? He loved it and I took a walk around the block and I was almost choked up with tears because it occurred to me at that moment, even though I've been I've had a successful career as a TV writer.

Speaker 1: 29:33

This is the book that I wanted to write when I was in college. These are the stories I wanted to tell, but I didn't know how to, and so it took people and I felt like I was honoring that 20 year old kid I was. That was his dream. That was his dream. My dream turned into something else, but at least I realized his dream as well.

Speaker 2: 29:51

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 29:51

It took me whatever two and a half years to write the book, but it really took me 26 years to learn how to write the book.

Speaker 2: 29:58

Yeah, Well, and I mean, you put all your life experience into it, right? So totally yeah yeah. I love that. So, yeah, don't give up. And it's proof in the pudding too. On this book, Paper Orchestra, you said it died in the acquisition phase. Right, Nobody wanted it, it died on submission. And you didn't give up. And look what's happened since.

Speaker 1: 30:17

So very cool.

Speaker 2: 30:19

Thank you so much, michael, for coming on the show. We will link to all the things you talked about your Substack article, your tour. We'll put some links to your website and everything and your book in the show notes. But anything else you want to say to the audience before we let you go, that's it.

Speaker 1: 30:32

You're doing a wonderful service to people. You're really helping them with their words, and that's important, because everyone wants to feel seen and heard, and that's what you help them do.

Speaker 2: 30:41

Well, thank you for saying that, that's the goal. We want everyone to feel seen and heard and we want everyone to feel like writing their book is that possible dream that they can achieve if they don't have college degrees, if they don't have any other artistic proof I'm using air quotes, you can't see me but artistic proof that they can. We want everyone to feel like they can do it. So I appreciate you coming on and sharing your story and we'll have to maybe have you come back and talk more about typical screenwriting stuff someday.

Speaker 1: 31:07

Anytime you want, anytime you want.

Speaker 2: 31:09

All right, thank you.

Speaker 1: 31:10

Thank you again.

Speaker 2: 31:13

So that's it for today's episode. As always, thank you so much for tuning in and for showing your support. If you want to check out any of the links I mentioned in this episode, you can find them in the show notes listed in the description of each episode inside your podcast player or at savannahgilbocom forward slash podcast. If you're an Apple user, I'd really appreciate it if you took a few seconds to leave a rating and a review. Your ratings and reviews tell Apple that this is a podcast that's worth listening to and, in turn, your reviews will help this podcast get in front of more fiction writers just like you. And while you're there, go ahead and hit that follow button, because there's going to be another brand new episode next week, full of actionable tips, tools and strategies to help you become a better writer. So I'll see you next week and until then, happy writing.