Speaker 1: 0:00

This Philip Briggs is intriguing because you know it's like Danica obviously hates him.

Speaker 2: 0:06

And you know not to get too far into that, but at some point he's considered behind Danica's murder and then proven innocent and things like that. So I think it's. What's cool is that, as a reader who doesn't know any of that, you're picking up on that in the first chapter. And then let's turn that around. For if we were to write a character like this in our own books, how could we write someone who, yes, we get that hint that he could be something more? We don't know yet.

Speaker 2: 0:33

Welcome to the Fiction Writing Made Easy podcast. My name is Savannah Gilbo and I'm here to help you write a story that works. I want to prove to you that writing a novel doesn't have to be overwhelming, so each week I'll bring you a brand new episode with simple, actionable and step-by-step strategies that you can implement in your writing right away. So whether you're brand new to writing or more of a seasoned author looking to improve your craft, this podcast is for you. So pick up a pen and let's get started.

Speaker 2: 1:03

In today's episode, abigail K Perry and I are breaking down the first chapter of house of earth and blood by sarah j mass, and I'm very excited to dig into this book's opening pages, because not only is sarah j mass one of my favorite authors, but also because this opening chapter provides a really great example of what it means to have a book with a steep learning curve. If you're not familiar with this term, it basically describes how long it takes readers to get up to speed on the nuances of your story world. And in something like the Harry Potter books, those have more of a shallow learning curve, meaning we learn about the world as Harry does, but in House of Earth and Blood there is more of a steep learning curve where we're kind of thrown off the deep end and need to catch up to what Bryce knows and understands. So I love this book as an example of a steep learning curve, and we talk more about that in the episode. Now, what's really going to be fun about this episode is that Abigail has not read this book or any of Sarah J Maas's other books, so she is coming in with completely fresh eyes and I'm really eager to see what she picks up on as a first-time reader.

Speaker 2: 2:10

Because, remember, the goal of these deep dives is to see how and why the opening chapter hooks us and pulls us into the story, and also how it makes us a promise of what's to come in the rest of the book, so I'm very interested to see what Abigail will pick up on in terms of that bigger promise, and you'll hear us talk about that in the episode as well. Now, speaking of Abigail, she is my co-host for today's episode and if you've never met Abigail before, she is a developmental editor, a book coach and the host of an amazing podcast called Lit Match, and on her podcast, she helps writers find the best literary agent for their writing and publishing careers. I will link to where you can find Abigail around the internet, as well as her podcast, in the show notes. But without further ado, let's dive into the first chapter of House of Earth and Blood by Sarah J Maas to see how and why it works.

Speaker 1: 2:54

Hey, savannah, thanks for joining me again. I am really excited to get into the book that we chose to analyze today, mainly because I know this has been top of your list for a long time, so we are going to talk about it. I, shockingly, have never read the Sarah J Maas books and I know how huge they are, but we are going to study today the first book in Crescent City by Sarah J Maas, and I know that you have a summary for us before we get into it.

Speaker 2: 3:25

Yep, so technically, this is House of Earth and Blood, which is the first Crescent City book, and we're collectively all going to hold Abigail to reading it, or at least reading one of Sarah J Mass's books, because these are some of my favorites. So in this very first chapter, bryce Quinlan. She's at work inside a magical gallery owned by a sorceress named Jessaba Roga and she's doing some research. And then there's a knock at the door and Bryce realizes that it must be Thursday because her best friend, danica, is the one knocking on the door and she usually only comes by on Thursdays. So Bryce lets Danica into the gallery and Danica asks, or more like, tells Bryce that she's going to leave her sword in the gallery and that she needs to shower because she's covered in grime.

Speaker 2: 4:09

They talk about Jessaba and about Bryce's new tattoo, and then Danica reveals that a human named Philip Briggs is about to be released from prison and everybody is in an uproar over it. And Briggs is a bomber slash terrorist intent on starting a revolution that will allow humans to overthrow their magical overlords. And Bryce's best friend, danica, is the most upset about this because her and her pack of devils are the ones who captured him in the first place, so they feel like a big injustice is being done by letting him free. And Danica tells Bryce that she intends to protest Briggs's release at the council meeting that afternoon. So that's why she's here. She's going to shower and get ready for that. So she goes off to shower and then Jessica calls to let Bryce know that she knows exactly what's going on, that Danica is there because she has a camera monitoring the gallery at all times, and that's how the chapter ends.

Speaker 1: 5:04

Okay, awesome, and you and I actually both discussed that. We think that the first scene extends into chapter two as well, right, yeah, so we are going to go a little bit into chapter two today, but that was a great summary. There's so much world building in this first chapter. Yeah, definitely steep learning curve. I'm really excited to pick your brain about that, because you are a world-building master and I like to go to you for all advice on world-building.

Speaker 2: 5:30

No pressure.

Speaker 1: 5:31

Yeah, no pressure, but you do a great job.

Speaker 1: 5:33

But there's a lot in here. So I think it will be extra cool that I haven't read this and you have, because I'm probably going to be asking a lot of questions and hopefully, if you have not read this with me, you'll be in that same seat, because this is a great way to kind of look out when you are approaching a story from an analytical perspective. Where can you start to see how authors really create valuable setups? And especially when it comes to steep learning curves and we can get caught in the world and describing things too much, when are you describing things that have value to what we're going to see and how it's going to create depth to the characters and the plot and all of those important details, and when is it extra? So I think that I'll be able to ask you questions about that, savannah, and you can probably answer them for me.

Speaker 2: 6:16

Yeah, and that's kind of one of the reasons I want to do this book so much. I love it, of course, but I also wanted to see what Abigail would see as someone who's coming to it with fresh eyes. Because when you reread the first chapter as someone who's read the book, you can see all these setups and you're like, oh, how clever. The author did X, y, z to set up this thing coming later and I just wanted to get Abigail's take on. What is it like to read it with fresh eyes, knowing nothing about the rest of the book? So that's what we're in for today and I'm going to actually ask you the big picture questions, abigail.

Speaker 2: 6:52

So what we normally do is we want to look at, like, how does this first chapter set up our expectations, how does it tell readers what kind of story they're in for, whether they realize it or not, and then how does each coming scene kind of deliver on those expectations? So we do this by using seven key questions from Paula Meunier's book, the Writer's Guide to Beginnings. And the first question, abigail, is about genre. So what kind of story is it? And we usually say this one is more the commercial genre and the next is the content genre.

Speaker 1: 7:20

Okay, so commercial genre we're looking at? I mean, it feels like epic fantasy to me. I know it's romantic-y as well, so would you call this romantic-y?

Speaker 2: 7:29

Yeah, I would. I think it's also like contemporary urban fantasy and it's for adults. How do we get clues to this in the first chapter?

Speaker 1: 7:37

Well, we know that there's a lot of types of creatures in this story. We know that there's a lot of types of creatures in this story. We know that there's a lot of I see. I want to say there's a witch, so we don't necessarily see magic happening, but it kind of is magic because we have Danica can shapeshift into a wolf.

Speaker 1: 7:56

It sounds like there's a lot of faes which are fairies. We know that the humans there tends to be. It looks like there's this political setup between humans and basically anything that is not human has some sort of like magical ability and is very powerful. And it looks like Bryce is a half human so she can't heal. Context is that they got tattoos. Danica and bryce got tattoos and hers, bryce, hasn't healed as quickly but danica's has, because she's one of these ones that can shape shift into a full wolf, where someone like bryce is not going to have as much magic. But she is half of something right and it looks like she has a brother. I think we read in chapter two who's a full fairy, so I'm assuming that she's half.

Speaker 2: 8:43

Is she a?

Speaker 1: 8:44

half fae, yeah, half human fae, and there's just a lot of that I know. There's like a Chimera who's a pet inside the antique shop and like there's another magical creature there. We're dealing a lot with antique heirlooms that have that seem like they have some magical sources to them sources to them. So we're in the city. Yeah, there's a lot of, there's a lot of clues, there's a lot of world building. You don't necessarily go to the depth of understanding every single detail about everything, but you can see how the entire political system is based off of magical creatures and not and we get the hint that we're kind of in this city or this urban setting.

Speaker 2: 9:19

Also, the topics the characters are talking about, like getting tattoos, they're cursing, they have jobs, you know. So we can get the sense that yes, it's for adults, yes, it's fantasy and yes, we're in some kind of urban setting. So I think we can say check, the first chapter really tells us what kind of commercial genre we're looking at.

Speaker 1: 9:37

Yes, and then for content genre, this is an interesting one Because you know right away when I hear fantasy I usually will kind of just default to action because we usually can deal with life and death stakes. So that's what my guess would be. We're not necessarily dealing with life and death stakes in like in our face on this page, but there's hints about rebellion with humans, with Philip Briggs, and they're in bombs and things like that. And Danica and how she can, she says that she could take him, but basically Bryce reinforces, everyone says that she could take him, but everyone basically Bryce reinforces, everyone knows that you could take him.

Speaker 1: 10:07

There's a lot of like quarreling, so you can see that there's kind of this like landscape of violence in a way. At the same time I almost had a question like are we going to have a lot of society stuff in here as well? I don't think that's that. I think that's going to be more of like a subplot or a main thematic like plot line going on, because you can see such divide between the humans and the magical creatures. Yeah, but I'd probably say we're going to. My vote would be action. And then I know that there's a lot of romance in this I'm going to say there's a love subplot in there. I don't see the love storyline set up in the first chapter, unless it's going to be with Philip Briggs.

Speaker 2: 10:44

So love storyline set up in the first chapter, unless it's going to be with Philip Briggs. And it's kind of interesting because in a way, we get love with Danica right Like they're best friends. They've been best friends for the last five years. So it's not, you know, not the typical romantic love that we're getting a hint at, but there is a flavor of. Relationships are important, but I think you're spot on, which is really cool. I was very curious what you were going to say for this question.

Speaker 2: 11:05

So this is number two, kind of dealing with the plot. What is the story really about? And I think Abigail pretty much nailed it there. So I do think it is an action story. There's a lot that we get in terms like I was going to add up before this but I didn't get to do it how many times the word power is used, how many words like the word danger and death and things like that are used. So we definitely get this flavor of. This is a dangerous place, especially now that Philip Briggs is loose.

Speaker 2: 11:32

And what's really interesting is I've talked to a lot of other writers who you know spoiler alert if you want to skip ahead 30 seconds or so when Danica dies, it kicks off this kind of crime subplot later in the story.

Speaker 2: 11:44

So I feel like a lot of people could view this as a crime story and I think that would discount some of this bigger stuff that we have going on, because it's through Danica's really her death and like the investigation into that that brings Bryce back around to this bigger plot of this kind of power struggle and these life or death situations and things like that.

Speaker 2: 12:03

But also I thought it was really interesting. So there's this whole thing about Luna's horn that readers of the book will know what I'm talking about, but if you haven't read the book, it's basically the MacGuffin of the entire story, so multiple people want it. In this first chapter Bryce is talking about how you know it would really. I think it's in the second chapter, but she's researching in the first chapter where to find the horn and in the second chapter she's kind of like you know, this would be meaningful for my career, my boss really wants it, whatever. So there's that's partially what the story is about too, and it comes into play in a bigger way and we do get hints of that in the first chapter.

Speaker 1: 12:40

So I think that's really interesting as well in regards into what they were going to try to achieve, especially based on how, when they talk about suspicions and I think this is chapter two, but this is also why we need to extend the scene into chapter two, based on Bryce and where she gets to have a little bit more agency in making decisions. But I forget if it's Danica or Bryce that one of them suspects that the raid, the electricity has gone off, which I found really interesting, that that caused a raid, because there are, they are filled in this world with tons of these magical creatures. So it seemed interesting that jessica has a generator. There's a lot of detail put on having a generator and the antique store is able to stay up and running because of the generators. That it.

Speaker 1: 13:39

That was one thing I just wanted to mention. Like with world world-building too, is interesting to me. It seems like there were normal and I say that you know in quotations, but normal parts of this world that a human in today's modern society would understand mixed within this like huge magical system. So that was really interesting because there was like generator. There was, like you said, like they're getting tattoos. There's a reference to Bryce being high one day and coming to.

Speaker 1: 14:06

I guess the day of the day that she got the tattoo. So it was interesting because it felt like, okay, these are like things that we would see in our day-to-day mixed in the magical system. So that was right.

Speaker 2: 14:15

That was pretty cool to see that, yeah, which we can talk about more in a second on setting, because I think that really helps ground us into that steep learning curve. But speaking of the tattoo, so readers of the book will know that basically her tattoo is Luna's horn. So we know. Like on reread we can say, holy cow, the author put that, you know, right in these opening pages with that tattoo, but you would never know it as a first time reader. However, it's there and it's cool to see like Abigail picked up on how important, important that was, even though she didn't know why it was going to be important. So I think, um, that's really cool. Also, you picked up on the power struggle between the different groups. That's definitely a thing. And then there's talk about the different archangels, that kind of rule over everybody.

Speaker 2: 14:59

Micah spoiler is the main antagonist of this book, so we've mentioned him already in this opening chapter two. So I do think, in a roundabout way, this first chapter gives us a sense of what the story is going to be about, and of course it's about this friendship between Danica and Bryce and things like that, but we might not understand that on first read. Yep, so okay. So that's question two. What is the plot of the story. What's the story really about? Question three is point of view. So I don't know if you would know this, having not read the book, abigail, but it's a third person limited through two characters perspectives. One is Bryce, we meet in the first chapter, and the second is her eventual love interest. Who is the Umbra Mortis who they talk about, I believe, in the first chapter. So that's Hunt Athalar and her eventual love interest.

Speaker 1: 15:46

Okay, yes, I would not have suspected that. You said that they referenced him, so it's important to see like, okay, we're already kind of setting up a character who's going to play a role later in the story.

Speaker 1: 15:56

So does he really mean to tell me that any of the heads want to rebel like Briggs at large? They'll find someone technicality and throw his ass right back in jail. She added because Danica still wouldn't look at her. There's no way the 33rd's not monitoring his every breath. Brig so much as blinks wrong and he'll see what kind of pain angels can rain down on us. Hell, the governor might even send the Umbra mortiffs after him.

Speaker 2: 16:15

Yeah, so yeah, he's introduced quite early, which is kind of cool too, and then later we get his point of view.

Speaker 1: 16:22

And that is within the first, like I have the Kindle version, but it's the first four pages of chapter two, so very early we're seeing that.

Speaker 2: 16:29

Yeah, which is you know, either way you think about it, if he's the love interest, if he's part of the conflict, if he's another point of view character, either way you look at it, he's in this first chapter, which is exactly what we want to do in any of those scenarios.

Speaker 1: 16:41

So why do you think it's important that this became a dual point of view third person limited, then, versus just Bryce?

Speaker 2: 16:48

Probably because of their romance, and there's a big twist, slash, betrayal that comes from Hunt later. So we do need to feel invested in him and he's a character that has point of view throughout the entire series and I think there's things that he's privy to that Bryce isn't just because of his job and things like that, but it's actually a pretty good case study of. In a way, he's kind of an unreliable narrator because we will kind of but kind of not right, he's harboring this secret or like different motivations than what we see from Bryce's point of view. So the author had to be very strategic about when we dip into Hunt's point of view and how much she let on in Hunt's point of view to pull off the twist from Bryce's point of view.

Speaker 1: 17:31

And when does his point of view come in Chapter?

Speaker 2: 17:34

six, his point of view comes in.

Speaker 1: 17:35

Okay. So that's interesting, because I feel like when you do a dual point of view, it doesn't usually take that long before you get into the second one. So it's interesting why do you think we spend so much time with bryce before we get his point of view?

Speaker 2: 17:48

well, because she's our main protagonist and also he's not really relevant before the crime happens okay so like yes, I mean of course he's relevant. I hate saying that, but it's kind of like we don't, we don't need to know anything, in his point of view, until he gets pulled in to participate in figuring out who killed Danica and the pack of devils.

Speaker 1: 18:08

Okay, interesting. So that's great to know, just because I think that a lot of writers have a hard time making the decision of if you have multiple point of views when you introduce them, and there has to be purpose for it, it can't be random. Right so that makes sense that we need to spend time.

Speaker 2: 18:25

I think it's cool that we don't get set up of Hunt Like imagine if we had and there's like a point of view of him and his job and it's like a day-to-day in the life of Hunt, we wouldn't care.

Speaker 1: 18:35

Right, and if he's unreliable, you're going to not trust him as much. If it's later, right.

Speaker 2: 18:43

Yeah, and it's funny. I hate using the word unreliable, because he's reliable in the sense that what he tells us is true, but the way the author constructed it, it has the effect of an unreliable narrator if that makes sense. Yeah, because we're left out of hearing things from his perspective. Yeah, okay, question four is about character. So when we're reading this first chapter and we come out of the first chapter, who do we care about?

Speaker 1: 19:08

the most. I really care about Bryce and Danica Yep I really care about. I actually really like Danica the most.

Speaker 2: 19:15

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 19:16

Based on this first impression, I know you could kind of tell that these first couple of chapters it feels like and we are dealing with an epic world, so you could tell like there was a lot that was grounding us and introducing us to certain characters in the world itself. And I think that when you have more of these grand, big worlds with the steep learning curves, you have to spend a little bit more time doing that in the beginning to set the stage for us. It a little bit more time doing that in the beginning to set the stage for us. It's interesting because, like as a reader knowing a steep learning curve, you just accept things and move on and learn about them as you learn in the story. But there is a lot of groundwork done.

Speaker 1: 19:48

But Danica, getting to know the characters through you mentioned earlier their relationship and how they care for each other I like their personalities. I like their snarkiness between each other. That's obviously very affectionate as well. I like that they have each other's backs and I like that they're a little bit rebellious. So there's a lot of things to like about them.

Speaker 1: 20:06

What stood out to me why I like Danica the most was when they were talking about Sabine, yeah, and there was the day that she met her at school and Danica stood up to Sabine. And here she is, I have it. Bryce and Sabine had hated each other from the moment that Alpha had sneered at her only child's improper half-bred roommate that first day at CCU and Bryce had loved Danica from the moment her new roommate had offered her a hand in greeting anyway, and then said Sabine was just pissy because she'd been hoping for a muscle-bound vampire to duel over Immediately. I loved Danica for that. Yeah, that's what I am. I mean, most people are, but I'm a big, big, big fan of any character that's going to stand up to a bully in order to defend someone else.

Speaker 1: 20:50

So I loved that and, interestingly enough, often also if we have a POV who loves someone, naturally the reader is going to love that character as well. So, knowing that Danica you know you already mentioned the spoiler, but spoiler alert again in case you did skip knowing that Danica is going to die, it made sense that there is going to be a lot more attention placed on making us really care about her, and we saw also that it seems like Danica was going to be threatened a lot more than Bryce. So my worries are shared with Bryce. It seems like Bryce is getting more and more nervous about the position that Danica is going to be in. She's going to stand up to the council that's trying to release Philip Briggs. There's mentioning about will Philip Briggs come after Danica and the other devils. So you can see like it feels like Danica is pretty confident that she can take care of herself, but there are hints that danger is coming for her.

Speaker 2: 21:46

Yeah, definitely hints and I think you're totally right about all that and the setup of their friendship makes the eventual death way more, you know, impactful. And also we see this not to get too far ahead, but we see it continue in chapter two because the rest of Danica's pack are texting Bryce like how is she, is she okay about Philip Briggs? And things like that. So we're made to care about Danica and the rest of the pack, who they all die in a future chapter. So I think you know there's because if you're writing a book like this and let's say you have a twist like a Danica dying, there's so many places you could start your story right. You could have just started, or the author could have just started with Bryce at work and maybe dealing with Jessica only or a client or whatever. But I think it's exactly what you said earlier we need to build up that love and that connection and friendship between Bryce and Danica to make it hit harder later.

Speaker 1: 22:39

And then, on the flip side of that, why did I like Bryce? You know I like that Bryce takes care of her friend. Yeah, you know, bryce felt like the ordinary I use that so lightly because obviously no hero is ordinary but she felt more like the ordinary character out of the two of them and so that makes her very relatable because it puts us in her position. She does seem like she has something to prove. Yeah, she is working at this antique shop and she helps Danica out, knowing that Jessica, her boss, doesn't like that Right.

Speaker 1: 23:12

So with La Habba, her reaction to Danica coming in is not wanting her there and saying you know, jessica doesn't, jessopas isn't going to like her here. And Bryce immediately stands up for Danica and, you know, basically throws that right back in LaHobba's face. And you just see that Bryce also has something to prove in what she's trying to do with this horn, particularly when she says that she thinks that this would be good for her career. So you see, she's a half-fae, half-human, and it feels like she is something that she wants to prove to herself. She feels like it's going to come from third party validation, but you can see that there's a lot of growth potential for her coming into herself and what she values about herself and what she can do to give that back to the world when she believes in herself. Yeah, and that's. You're rooting for her in that regard.

Speaker 2: 24:02

That's exactly right, so bright. The humans in this world are basically second-class citizens, so she's half human. She's also this is another spoiler but she's also the daughter or, yeah, the daughter of the king of the fae and he basically doesn't want anything to do with her because she's half human, even though he slept with her mom. Who's human?

Speaker 1: 24:22

So talk about hypocrite God, complex there.

Speaker 2: 24:26

Yeah, so she definitely has like a worldview arc where it's coming to understand, like you know, what's her place in the world, what's her value with or without finding the horn and with or without solving the murder, and you know all this different stuff.

Speaker 1: 24:43

So it's great and really cool that you picked up on that in the first chapter, not having read the rest of the book. Yeah, cool. So those are the two characters you're thinking about and you know this Philip Briggs is intriguing because you know it's like Danica obviously hates him, so you're trying to figure out. You know she's, she's part of the team that brought him in, but I always felt like, okay, there's something to learn about this Philip Briggs. I think that there's more that meets the eye with him.

Speaker 2: 25:06

So something's going to happen, yeah, and you know, not to get too far into that, but at some point he's considered behind Danica's murder and then proven innocent, things like that. So I think it's. What's cool is that, as a reader who doesn't know any of that, as a reader who doesn't know any of that, you're picking up on that in the first chapter. And then let's turn that around. For if we were to write a character like this in our own books, how could we write someone who yes, we get that hint that you know he could be something more? We don't know yet. But there's a very valid reason in this first chapter, if you read nothing else, why Danica's upset. We know what he's accused of, we know a lot of information that we could just take on surface value and it works. So I think that's just something to be considerate of if you're writing something like this.

Speaker 2: 25:49

Yeah definitely, but okay. So then the question five is about setting. So where and when does the story take place? And I'll go through this one really quick, just because there's kind of a lot here. So we're on the planet of Midgard. The first chapter is at the art gallery mainly, which is in Crescent City, which is formerly known as Lunathion, and we hear about a lot of really important places. So we hear at the end of the chapter we kind of visit the gate at the heart of the old square. There are some key places mentioned, like all the different quarters that people live in, and across the sea we hear about Panjera and all these different places. But it's kind of like we start at the gallery because that's going to be a significant place for Bryce. It's kind of her home base other than her house. We also hear about places we're going to visit. So we don't have to go to a lot of these in the first chapter, but we hear about them and that kind of starts to set up the world.

Speaker 1: 26:43

Yeah, definitely, and what you said when you mentioned them. And see, this is where I haven't read the story. So I don't feel like the names and locations, that's something that, for the way my brain works, I'd have to write them down and like look at them before I can recite them, and I didn't do that. But when you name them, I hear that and I'm like, yep, I remember reading about Penjir, I remember reading about the city itself, to just kind of help writers when they're thinking about how do you write a story like this?

Speaker 1: 27:09

All of those big, grand landscapes are being mentioned while keeping us contained in the setting of the antique shop. So, with Griffith Antiques, that is very I can envision that, right, I can envision this antique shop with all of these magical artifacts, with this like magical pet in there in the books, and she's, you know, researching through the books it has the shower. So I'm being able to help ground myself in something small and digestible while being told about a world that's much bigger than that, right? So that's a useful technique when you are having these with this big world and needing to, early on, set up important locations without actually like visually looking at a map while at the same time containing us in something that feels relatable and easy to understand.

Speaker 2: 28:03

Yeah, and so earlier Abigail mentioned the word a steep learning curve, and so learning curve, for those of you who don't know, is basically how long does it take the reader to immerse themselves and feel like they understand your world? And I think this is a great example of a steep learning curve in this first chapter, because there's so many terms and you know different creatures and things that are just thrown at us and we're like Abigail said, we're expected to just say, okay, I'm going to keep reading and I hope I'm going to understand this at some point. You felt that way when you read it right, abigail kind of um.

Speaker 1: 28:37

Brendan Sanderson, he has his BYU online course that's free on YouTube and he he talks about steep learning curve versus shallow learning curve and I remember him saying with the steep learning curve, that's something that readers will do. They just they hear it and they just accept it. Yeah, and where the shallow learning curve, you will be introduced to it, often through the protagonist experiencing it. So Harry Potter's a shallow learning curve For me. My taste, I tend to gravitate more towards shallow learning curves than steep learning curves.

Speaker 1: 29:04

So when I'm reading something like this, just the way my brain works, that's what I'm talking about. I need to do a reread because I am picking up on it but I haven't been able to wrap my head around it to truly understand what it is. But I'm accepting. Okay, this is a council and this is, you know, a type of breed. And then there are the devils and there's talk about taking the immortality plunge that she hasn't done. So I don't know what that is yet, but I can take it at face value and assume that I'm going to learn it later, and I think that you correct me if I'm wrong with this Savannah. When something is mentioned, is it important that eventually there's a payoff when we understand it, or not always.

Speaker 2: 29:45

I think so and I think that's something that Sarah J Maas does well is that at some point we'll learn what the meaning is. If we can't infer it, you know and that doesn't mean that everything is going to be super meaningful. It just means at some point we're going to understand fully what the author's intending. So I think she does do a good job of that, and there's a lot of important stuff in this first chapter. It's like almost like imagine you get a blank coloring book page right and so we know that we're coloring in a bear. Right, that's our shape. And then, as the chapters go on, we start to really color in the lines and understand oh, this is a brown bear or a black bear, or it's wearing a bow tie, whatever.

Speaker 1: 30:23

That's kind of how I like to think about it, okay, so another quick question for you, just because I think that a lot of readers would ask this, especially if they're writing fantasy, regardless of if it's a steep or shallow learning curve. How do they know, especially in a series, when it's something that they need to include in the book because this is part of a series, versus something that maybe could be saved for a later book? Do they need to get everything in the first book, or can they allow things to unfold as you read through the series? And how do you make those decisions?

Speaker 2: 30:54

I think you can definitely allow things to unfold. Allow things to unfold and it's kind of what we did see in our Harry Potter analysis too is that you know, in that book particular, we heard about the Ministry of Magic, but we don't really know anything about it. So you know it's the same thing in this book is we hear about things that maybe pay off in later books. But what we have to remember that's different about House of Earth and Blood is that Danica and Bryce are natives, so they are natives to this world. They've lived in this world for a long time, like since birth, right? So nothing is unfamiliar to them. Where something like Harry Potter, everything is unfamiliar to him. In the magical world, he's helping us get up to speed where Bryce is. She has no responsibility to get us up to speed because we're dropping in on her life.

Speaker 1: 31:37

You know and I think that's really important how you tie that back to the point of view. Because, something like Harry Potter, it's advantageous to have Ron be his best friend, who has only known the wizarding world, but Ron is able to explain things to Harry, or Hagrid's able to explain things to Harry when he experiences the world. If it's an area that needs explanation and it doesn't seem like it's telling us, because we're the characters learning as we're learning right, we're exactly what you said, like in this situation. Bryce and Danica were born here, so it would be silly for them to explain something that they understand, because they're not telling it to the reader.

Speaker 2: 32:12

They're telling the story right right, which also sometimes when you have characters who are natives and they've been born in the land, that does naturally lean itself to a steeper learning curve, makes sense. Because imagine, in this opening chapter, if, like you know, bryce mentioned the horn and Danica's like remind me what is the horn, might be distracting. You know, that sounds unnatural, it sounds silly, like Abigail said. So part of it is like we as the reader, we have to just kind of trust that we're going to find out what all this stuff means, and I think that's appropriate for this kind of adult fantasy.

Speaker 1: 32:43

So sure, yeah, yeah, yeah, and I can tell that she does a great job with this.

Speaker 2: 32:47

So yeah, but I remember reading this for the first time and thinking like this is the ultimate example of a steep learning curve. So okay so let's, let's kind of speed through these last two questions. So six is about emotion. How should we feel about what's happening? You kind of hinted at this earlier. We're concerned for Danica.

Speaker 1: 33:06

Yeah, exactly that's what I think I mean. You're also to emphasize that you're concerned because Bryce is concerned.

Speaker 2: 33:11

Right you know.

Speaker 1: 33:12

So I think that that actually raises the stakes, because you can see where her concern is, but not wanting to say too much.

Speaker 2: 33:18

Yeah, and so, speaking of stakes, that's the next question, which I'll kind of answer. Add my two cents to both. So we care. What's interesting is we care about Danica and Bryce because Philip Briggs is released. So we know exactly why Danica's struggling with this. And then also we see that Bryce is like I don't want my mom coming to the city while Philip Briggs is out. We know she's pursuing this horn which already could be dangerous. Danica sets that up a little bit for us in chapter two and so it's kind of like Philip Briggs, it throws a layer of caution over both of their day to day. But in terms of stakes, I'm curious, abigail, what you picked up on. We kind of did talk about this like why should we care about next? And like what did you infer the stakes were from this opening chapter?

Speaker 1: 34:03

Okay. So you know to even kind of step back. I know I've mentioned this before. If you've been following me for a while, you know I love James Scott Bell and he always says the whiff of death. So psychological, physical and professional three whiffs of death, and this can kind of tie into stakes related to content, genre as well. So physical stakes feel high here. With philip riggs, I think mainly because danica and bryce talk about how philip riggs, despite being human um, has his bombs and his plan before, before danica intercepted him, was to bomb a club, I believe. So it was going to be a high mortality rate if he had succeeded. So like right away, like you know that there are the physical stakes there, danica seems like she is very familiar on a day to day basis of getting her hands dirty. She just broke up a fight between one of them was Nightcrawler, I forget the other In a Seder.

Speaker 1: 34:53

In a Seder. Okay, so she had like black juice, like crusting on her hands Right, so one of them had spewed on her. So she's used to this, she's used to getting into the heat of quarrels and action and danger. Um, so you know that those physical stakes there are higher for Bryce. Her stakes feel very much related to relationships and right now, like she also has so she has this risk of, if Danica is in trouble, there's a stake for her to lose her best friend who seems like a constant in her life. At the same time, bryce's stakes are dealing almost on a professional scale because she is looking for this horn and she wants to. She wants it to escalate her career and I'd say you know psychological stakes, she's wanting to prove something to herself. So really you're hitting on all three of those whiffs of death you know in your face. Whenever there's life or death stakes on the, on the page, that's always going to dominate, I feel like, because if we die then it doesn't matter about the other stakes, because you're dead.

Speaker 1: 35:56

So, I think that those are in your face, but really there's a lot of psychological internal stakes here going on and you know, I'd call them worldview stakes because they're dealing with this push and pull between wanting to prove yourself and wanting to rise into something more that maybe the world has told you that you're not, and feeling that pressure and feeling like you need to have some. You need to do something in order to prove that. So that's where I was kind of landing, based on this chapter about what I thought were main stakes.

Speaker 2: 36:25

And would it be fair for readers who don't like the word psychological stakes, can we call them emotional stakes? Absolutely Same thing for me.

Speaker 2: 36:32

Yeah, and so I think you're spot on on all of that and I like to look at this kind of from a world building perspective, so kind of what Abigail said. There's a lot of personal stakes, whether they're psychological, career oriented or whatever, and I like to think about it as okay personal, yes, check. And then there's also this like public slash, like more local set of stakes which is within the districts. There's these power divides and this hierarchy that exists and you know, humans are kind of the second class citizens. And then there are global stakes which are, you know, bigger than that. So we hear about this battle between humans and the veneer, and Philip Briggs is kind of inciting these uprisings of humans everywhere. So you know, there's a lot of things that we know about. We don't necessarily feel those bigger stakes in this opening chapter because, like Abigail said, we're at this gallery and we're learning about their friendship and things like that, but the stakes are clear.

Speaker 1: 37:31

I'm just going to read something quickly, because absolutely everything that you're saying, Savannah, and to build off of that, in particular, this paragraph stood out to me that mentions stakes in you know a not obvious way, but it's there in your face. She would always have burdens and expectations to shoulder that Bryce would never have to endure and Bryce was thankful as hell for that privilege. When Bryce fucked up, Jessica usually gripped for a few minutes and that was that. When Danica fucked up, it was blasted on news reports and across the interweb. Sabine made sure of it. So you can see how they're actually day-to-day antagonists, if not beyond that, global antagonists, that are working against these characters that we care about. And I love what you said there about personal stakes and public stakes, because I think that that's really important when you're looking at a novel. You need to have both. You need to have personal stakes that become public stakes. You need to have public stakes that impact personal stakes. That's how you raise the stakes in a story, yeah.

Speaker 2: 38:24

And you play with the balance of that over time, and so I think it's really cool that we get a hint at all of this stuff. But we're grounding us in this relationship and there are stakes felt because each of these girls care about each other. So okay, so that kind of you know, I think if we said does this first chapter do its job? I think so. I think the part that's difficult is just that steep learning curve. But I know a lot of readers who read these kind of books are so game for that. So very fun.

Speaker 2: 38:50

I think we can go through the scene structure kind of fast. Abigail and I'll just introduce kind of what we're going to do. So, if you're brand new to these episodes, we like to look at within this first chapter is there a scene? If so, how many scenes exist and then what's the structure? So we use the five commandments from Story Grid, which I will link to a different podcast episode about what each of those elements are if you want to go more in depth. But we always like to start with like, what is the character's goal, and then that helps us make decisions about where do we see the scene structure. And Abigail spoiled this earlier for us. She said that we think the first scene actually spans multiple chapters and we'll talk about why in a second.

Speaker 2: 39:30

So if we're to just kind of dip into Bryce's world in the very beginning, we know that she's doing research and there's this part I haven't highlighted beginning. We know that she's doing research and there's this part I have it highlighted. There's this part that when Danica knocks on the door and they're exchanging words and then she says you'd know if you ever picked up a book, danica glad for the break in what had been a morning of tedious research. Bryce smiled as she rose from the desk. So we get this sense that this is already in progress.

Speaker 2: 39:57

She's researching something. We don't know what it is until later, but because we've talked about this, we know she's researching where the horn is. She wants to find the horn and then Danica arrives, which is really interesting because we get the sense that it's a common thing for her to show up on Thursdays. So it's not really a surprise. It's not really like. Yes, it gets in the way of her doing research technically, but it's not really a surprise. That, you know, interrupts Bryce's day to the extreme. What would you say about that, abigail?

Speaker 1: 40:27

Yeah, I mean I think that that's where it was so interesting to see how this first chapter felt like it was spending time to introduce sister characters and the setting, because she actually anticipates that Danica is going to come on a Thursday, right. She mentions how she actually keeps track of the week days of the week by expectation of when Danica arrives, right, because Thursday she's patrolling closer a block away from the store so she's just kind of going through. I think that we're again. It kind of goes back to the stakes when you learn that she just was assigned her to find this horn. That feels more immediate than just I'm selling antiques today. Like she does have a specific responsibility or appointment that she is trying to discover and she has been looking for for weeks though. So, or a week, so you can tell like this has been her day to day for at least a week, right.

Speaker 2: 41:16

Yeah, yep, and so I like to sometimes think of that. If we don't like the word scene goal, it's like what's her objective? Her objective is to find information, to find the whereabouts of this horn. So then Danica comes in, and the reason I'm setting it up this way is because we're looking for an inciting incident. This is that first kind of blip of conflict, and we could say that it's Danica arriving. However, like we said, it's kind of expected. So does it count?

Speaker 1: 41:39

Does it not. I didn't mean that way and I don't think you mean that way either. So what were you thinking was the inciting incident? And I just want to do a quick, quick point right here.

Speaker 1: 41:50

When we are selecting the commandments, one thing that I know I'm really looking for, and I believe you're looking for too, is to keep the commandments as tightly bound as possible around the same plot point, so like they're not just being random commandments that feel detached from one main thing. That's building in the scene. And that's important because the commandments are about scene structure, and a lot more than structure needs to happen in order for a scene to work Like. We need all these details about the world building. We need all the setups that might not necessarily be based in the structure but can exist and happen because of the context that is moving the scene forward. However, how the commandments work is how it's going to force the character to make that decision. That is going to create action and agency. So what around that is being tightly bound together through the commandments. I hope that that is being tightly bound together through the commandments. I hope that that explains yeah.

Speaker 2: 42:41

And so what we landed on basically for the inciting incident is that this is when Danica says you know, briggs is getting released or he's having a hearing to get released, or whatever it is. So it's not just a typical Thursday, right? We kind of get the sense of that is because Danica wants to shower and Bryce is thinking like why is she going to shower? And she's realizing, oh, she must be going in front of the council. Why is she going in front of the council? Well, because Philip Briggs is getting released or getting a hearing to be released. So I think that's what we landed on. And then it's kind of like well then what happens? How do we build up to this peak moment of conflict? And what we realized is we don't think that exists in chapter one, so we think the scene continues into chapter two. You want to talk about that, abigail Yep.

Speaker 1: 43:26

Yeah. So when I'm looking for scene structure, I'm always asking myself when is that main character making that crisis decision? And if they don't make a decision, like? Danica had some opportunities for some decisions in the first scene, so you could argue it that way, but realistically it didn't feel like Bryce could really act on it. Even when Philip Briggs when Danica mentions Philip Briggs is being released, it's shocking to her, but she can't do anything about that, Right?

Speaker 2: 43:50

What we landed on was when and Abigail's going to pull the passage, but we landed on this moment when Danica's, like you know, the horn searching for the horn's really dangerous. I think that you should just kind of placate Jessaba, say you're doing your best and then eventually she'll move on and she'll get some new shiny object that she wants you to go find. So we think, you know, given that Bryce's goal is to find this horn, given that we know it's important to what she feels is her worth and her career growth and things like that, we felt like that was a significant turning point because her friends brought her this idea of danger. Philip Briggs is out, she's reiterating that to find the horn people would have to be dangerous and capable of harm and things like that. And so then do you have the passage, abigail?

Speaker 1: 44:33

Yep, I have it. And this is interesting too, because actually, danica, it seems like she's picking up on something dangerous for bryce if she gets too tied into this horn. So it says the temple, bryce said with a sigh honestly, I've been looking into this thing for days on end and can't figure out anything. No suspects, no murmurings at the meat market about it for being sale, no motive for who'd even bother with it. It's famous enough that whoever's got it has it wrapped up tight. She frowned the clear sky. I almost wonder if the power outage was tied to it, if someone shut down the city's grid to steal it in the chaos. There are about 20 people in the city capable of being that crafty, and half of them possess the resources to pull it off.

Speaker 1: 45:08

And then here it is, danica's tail twitched. If they're able to do something like that, I suggest staying away. Lead Jesper around, round up it, make her think you're looking for it and then let it drop. Either the horn will show up by then or she'll move on to her next stupid quest. And here's where Bryce is going to just go into the crisis. So Bryce now has to decide do I listen, do I take this advice or not. And then Bryce admits I just it'd be good to find the horn for my own career, whatever the hell that would be. A year of working at the gallery hadn't sparked anything beyond disgust at the obscene amounts of money that rich people squandered on old ass shit. Danica's eyes flickered. Yeah, I know. Bryce zipped a tiny golden pendant, a knot of three entwined circles along the delicate chain around her neck.

Speaker 1: 45:48

So you see how she kind of her crisis is. She's not ready to take that advice. But also it seems like there are stakes being tied with that because Danica's sensing with that tail twitch and then the advice that she gives that maybe getting tied up in this horn isn't a good idea.

Speaker 2: 46:02

Well, and that's so interesting because that's what we're supposed to believe on the surface, right. So what you don't know is that Danica has found the horn. She has transmuted it somehow into powder, into ink. That is in Bryce's tattoo. Oh, my. Oh my, that too is the horn.

Speaker 1: 46:20

And Bryce now holds the power.

Speaker 2: 46:22

So Danica knows this and she's kind of like, yes, it is dangerous if Bryce continues to look for it, but it's also kind of pointless.

Speaker 1: 46:30

Wait a second here. No, I don't want to go into the bigger plot.

Speaker 2: 46:32

There's a bigger reason why it's important, and this whole thing with Danica too, and things like that. But okay, okay, but yeah. So it's kind of exactly what you said. We agree on this. The crisis is do I adhere to the friend's warning? Do I heed it and stop looking Kind of given especially to that Briggs is loose, or do I continue to search for the horn, given its importance to my boss and my career? And what's really interesting is that, because writers I talk to are always looking for examples of well, I don't want my character to sit there and be like, should I do this or should I do that?

Speaker 2: 47:05

on the page and this is a great example of when she's not doing it. But we infer the stakes because they've been set up. So, like Abigail said, the climax here is that she's not ready to take this advice. So the resolution is they go to the heart gate and they do the little gift to the gate and then they go on their merry way. So what is interesting and you know, because if I'm a writer I might be thinking well, what is all that stuff before Danica reveals what's happening with Briggs and that's like we've been talking about. It's set up, it's grounding us in their relationship, it's kind of offsetting the steep learning curve we have in the world. So if you're writing a scene like that, consider it all set up right, all investment in getting us ready for the conflict that's coming, and then remember that you can absolutely split your scenes by using chapter breaks.

Speaker 1: 47:59

Do you have any quick advice when you're creating setup like that? If it does need to be more detailed, making sure that it doesn't drag.

Speaker 2: 48:06

Yeah, so I think it's just what the author has done is on the surface, there's an interesting scene, right, like we're interested in what's happening between these two girls, just based on who they are, right, they're interesting to observe, and then we get this layer of conflict and danger that we're feeling. So it makes it more interesting. If it's not relevant to what's happening within either of those buckets, like the setup of their friendship, the setup of the conflict, we don't need to go deeper into it. So we don't need to know more about the Umbra Mortis than what we learn.

Speaker 1: 48:36

We don't need to know more about Micah than the things we learn, because it's not relevant to right now I'd add on to that also it's all happening within an action, so it's not like we're just sitting here and being told about it. Danica is like going into the locker to drop off the sword and change her clothes and shower, so it is interesting like all that's happening within them, actually doing things as well, right.

Speaker 2: 48:58

Yeah, and I think what's cool too is you can kind of flip this around and infer some. You can infer the same structure from Danica's point of view. So it's like you know, what is she going to do now that Briggs is released and there's a hearing and yada yada. So I think that's always a good thing to think about is what are the other characters doing and what is their scene crisis moment, even if it doesn't totally line up with your protagonist. But so if we're looking at that crisis of like, do I pursue looking for the horn or not? That's what gives this scene a meaningful arc of change. If she does, she's going to get potentially pulled into this danger. You know, we talked about the stakes earlier. So that's why we landed on one scene over two chapters, versus highlighting a crisis, like I could see writers saying. Well, in the first chapter she has to decide is she going to let Danica take a shower or not? Is she going to let Danica store her sword here or not?

Speaker 1: 49:47

I'm not sure those stakes are really tied to that yeah.

Speaker 2: 49:49

And so it's just kind of who cares right? Like yeah, she would get in trouble with Jessaba, but is she really going to get in trouble? Probably not. There's also a part where they're at the heart gate and it's like you know, bryce puts her hand on the thing and she's what are you going to wish for? Like yeah, that's a decision, but we don't really care. No, and it's not really tied to anything bigger. So that's kind of why we landed where we landed. And any final thoughts on that Abigail.

Speaker 1: 50:15

I'd just like to say some of these things and I know we've kind of gone into this in detail.

Speaker 1: 50:34

I just like to say some of these things and I know, we've kind of gone into this in detail so we don't need to say too much on this.

Speaker 1: 50:37

But when you are choosing what you spend more attention to, more description, more dialogue about more, you know, just attend, like basically, the character cares about it. That is actually with Hunt, who's going to come in, even though he's only mentioned, you know, in a couple of sentences, that's more than just a name, right. So it's like I think that that's just something to keep as a rule of thumb. When you spend more description and detail on something that's usually the author tipping it off of hey, this is going to be something to pay attention to. Pay attention, right, here, we're going to need to pay attention to this. So you get it when you, when it comes in later, versus like just one naming it or, you know, brushing over something without even a name. So that's just. I think that this is a really good example of the author planting clues in a meaningful way that hits us and not also like so obvious of a light that it's annoying.

Speaker 2: 51:24

Yeah, and I think the other thing that's probably important to talk about is that this is not happening on the first draft, so I can't imagine that Sarah J Maas sat down and wrote this exact scene. She probably had to get to the end of her draft to figure out, like what matters, what am I going to plant, what can I get away with planting versus what do I need to hold back? For chapter two.

Speaker 1: 51:39

You know things like that? Yeah, definitely yeah. And that can be very overwhelming, especially with fantasy writers feeling like they have to include every single detail on the first draft. That is, it's impossible, right, because you don't know what matters the most in the story until you get to the end usually.

Speaker 2: 51:56

And I think it's also important to think about your ideal reader and your the learning curve you're putting on them too, because, like we said earlier, if you're writing something like crescent city and you have a character who's a native, you're not going to give them a shallow learning curve. It just doesn't make sense if you have something like harry potter, where your character is not a native and they have to learn about the entire world. You're probably not going to start us off with the steep learning curve, because that wouldn't make sense.

Speaker 1: 52:22

Right. Well, these opening chapters for this book definitely grabbed my attention. I'd be interested in reading it more, you know, and I know that I need to.

Speaker 2: 52:31

Yeah, we're going to hold you to that.

Speaker 1: 52:33

Yeah, but I'm glad that you brought this one to my table to read and then it was fun to analyze and definitely one I would say again, you know it might. It's okay when things take a couple, you know, two, three, even four reads. The more times you read a story, the better you're going to understand what makes it tick Right Really. So that's part of why we love doing these first chapter deep dives and I hope that you got out of it as much as I got out of it, because I definitely learned a lot yeah, and I think it's really cool to just think about coming at it from a first-time reader, you know, because that is what if we're we're all writers, right.

Speaker 2: 53:07

So that's what people are going to come to our books like, and we want them to have that, on the surface, interest and then, of course, you can weave in all the other stuff that comes with it.

Speaker 2: 53:16

So I like doing these where one of us doesn't know the rest of the story, because it's so fun to see you know, because as a second time, third time, fourth time reader, I can't see it the way you see it anymore, yeah, and so it's cool to know that it still works from both perspectives the new reader and the reader who knows what all these little Easter eggs mean.

Speaker 1: 53:35

And you'll see, you notice like I stumbled a couple of times when I talk about it because I'm figuring it out, and that's okay, because that's me trying to grasp what stands out to me. That's the whole point of it.

Speaker 2: 53:45

Yeah. So anyway, we hope you enjoyed this episode and let us know on social media or respond to our emails what you thought of the learning curve. We're so curious if everyone else experienced it as a steep learning curve or not, so you'll have to let us know. Experienced it as a steep learning curve or not? So you'll have to let us know. So that's it for today's episode. As always, thank you so much for tuning in and for showing your support.

Speaker 2: 54:10

If you want to check out any of the links I mentioned in this episode, you can find them in the show notes listed in the description of each episode inside your podcast player or at savannahgilbocom forward slash podcast. If you're an Apple user, I'd really appreciate it if you took a few seconds to leave a rating and a review. Your ratings and reviews tell Apple that this is a podcast that's worth listening to, and, in turn, your reviews will help this podcast get in front of more fiction writers just like you. And while you're there, go ahead and hit that follow button, because there's going to be another brand new episode next week, full of actionable tips, tools and strategies to help you become a better writer. So I'll see you next week and until then, happy writing.