Speaker 1: 0:00

Sometimes writers will ask me, especially if they're writing a paranormal or fantasy or sci-fi and the character starts in the normal world. So in the normal world there might not be elements of that. You know, magic or whatever, and it's like that's fine because you're right. In a normal world if we don't have magic, it makes sense. But how do we still signal to the reader don't be surprised if in chapter four there's a magician. Or don't be surprised if there's faster than light travel, you know. So we do need to have those flavors, even as subtle as they are, in this opening chapter to set up the correct reader expectations.

Speaker 1: 0:35

Welcome to the Fiction Writing Made Easy podcast. My name is Savannah Gilbo and I'm here to help you write a story that works. I want to prove to you that writing a novel doesn't have to be overwhelming. So each week I'll bring you a brand new episode with simple, actionable and step-by-step strategies that you can implement in your writing right away. So whether you're brand new to writing or more of a seasoned author looking to improve your craft, this podcast is for you. So pick up a pen and let's get started.

Speaker 1: 1:04

In today's episode, abigail K Perry and I are diving deep into the first chapter of Outlander by Diana Galbadon, and I'm so excited to dig into the opening pages of this book with you, not only because I love the Outlander series, but also because it's the book that you, my lovely listeners, voted on when I pulled you in my newsletter last month. So I'm very excited for this one, and I hope you are as well. Something else that's going to be fun about this episode is that I've read the book and I've watched the TV show, but Abigail has neither read the book nor has she watched the show, so she's coming out this analysis with more of a blank slate, and I always think it's fun to see if we agree on our analysis, when one of us knows the book and the other doesn't. And or if we don't agree, what exactly is it that we see differently based on having read or not having read the book? So I think it's going to be really fun to see what happens.

Speaker 1: 2:00

And in case this is your first time hearing one of these first chapter analysis episodes, I do have a co-host today. Her name is Abigail K Perry and she is a developmental editor and the host of an amazing podcast called Lit Match. On her podcast, she helps writers find the best literary agent for their writing and publishing careers. I will link to where you can find Abigail around the internet, as well as her podcast in the show notes.

Speaker 1: 2:26

But essentially what we're going to do is we're going to dive into the first chapter of Outlander to see how and why it works. So we want to identify things like how many scenes there are in this first chapter and if there are multiple scenes, then what does the structure of each scene look like? We also want to identify how the author set up the rest of the book in the opening pages and what makes the opening chapter engaging. So how and why did it hook us readers, or did it fail to hook us as readers? And either way, what can we all collectively learn to make our own writing better? So that's what we're doing today and, without further ado, let's dive right into our conversation about the opening chapter of Outlander by Diana Galbadon.

Speaker 2: 3:11

Hey, savannah, I'm so happy to be back at this that we haven't recorded in a while and we are going to continue our fun, fun collaboration where we're reading first chapters, we're analyzing first chapters and, while we do go through our picks, I either know the story well and you don't, or vice versa, and today we're in the boat of. You have read this one, I have not read this one. I think a lot of people who know me would be surprised that I haven't read this one, but it's going to be for a great conversation either way, so happy to have you.

Speaker 1: 3:42

I am surprised you haven't read this one and spoiler we're doing Outlander if you didn't read the title of this episode. So we are going to analyze the first chapter of Outlander, and what's fun about this is we took a poll back in November and we had four options on the poll and Outlander won by a landslide. So we are doing the listener voted book, which is really fun and exciting as well.

Speaker 2: 4:08

And if you're just excited about this episode, I'd love to hear more about why this one for you, this first chapter is not an easy one to analyze, so we're going to have some fun analyzing it.

Speaker 2: 4:18

We did come to a consensus last night in preparation for this episode on how many scenes we think are in it, so I think we pretty quickly landed in a similar boat for what those scenes were. But I think there's a lot to discuss in general with the first chapter questions. So Savannah is going to have a summary of what this first chapter is. If you haven't read it, feel free to hit pause and go read it and come back, or feel free to listen and then go read it afterwards. Regardless, I encourage, like all first chapter episodes, for you to actually read the text or listen to the text at some point, to understand the breakdown and to obviously grow your craft because of that. These are fun episodes to help us how to read with a purpose and to become better at our craft by understanding great storytelling. So go ahead, savannah, take it away. Summary for first chapter of Outlander.

Speaker 1: 5:08

Yep, and real quick before I do that. So you said you want to hear from people about why you wanted this and we were talking about this. We're like is it because it's romance, is it because it is a historical romance, or is it because it looks really hard and you guys wanted to challenge us? So we want to know maybe it's a mixture of all those things Is it our most challenging today, or at least one of them for sure?

Speaker 2: 5:28

It has a lot going on in it. So I actually think that, being able to confidently say I think it's this many scenes I came to quicker than some of the other ones that we've analyzed, but as a whole, I will say I had to listen to it and read it multiple times because I have not read the whole book and I was like there are a lot of details and I'm trying to figure out what this is. So if I had not had you, savannah, to chat about with it, I would say this is probably the most difficult chapter I've tried to analyze, but I had you to chat about with it, so it helps to get there quicker.

Speaker 1: 6:03

We had to chat to prepare for this. It was really fun. So, anyway, let me dive into the summary. So this, like Abigail said, it's a long first chapter. A lot's going on.

Speaker 1: 6:13

So, essentially, claire she's our main character Claire and her husband of eight years his name is Frank. They're on vacation in Inverness in Scotland and they're on a second honeymoon that they hope and think are going to allow them to be reconnected, rekindle that romance after being separated. For I think it was seven years during World War II. So Claire in the war was a nurse and Frank he was in officer's training and he did something with M16. I don't know if we ever figure out exactly what that is with M16. I don't know if we ever figure out exactly what that is, but that's what he did. He's a historian, he's a professor who has recently accepted a permanent position at Oxford University, so there's a little bit of that influencing their trip to Inverness as well. Frank is deeply interested in Scottish history, which is very apparent in this first chapter. So while they're in Inverness he's also going to be researching one of his ancestors, whose name is Jack Randall.

Speaker 1: 7:10

So what happens in this chapter is that one day Claire's out going on her way to meet Frank and she's looking at a vase in a window. She's thinking about how Oxford will be their first real home and how they're hoping to have a baby and things like that. Then she meets up with Frank and they are on their way back to the place they're staying and they see bloodstains on the doorsteps of several local homes and they're just like what the heck is going on. So it's jarring a little bit at first, but then Frank's like I know what's going on. That blood is part of an old superstitious house cleansing ritual in the Scottish Highlands. So it's not like anyone committed murder or anything, although they do kill chickens. So I guess they do commit murder, but not a murder of a human. So then later that evening Frank meets a local historian and they talk through some things.

Speaker 1: 7:58

While Claire stays at the bed and breakfast A storm picks up outside and when Frank returns back to the place they're staying, he thinks he saw a ghost. So he says it's a strapping man dressed in a customary Scottish kilt and he thinks that man was looking at Claire through the window. He says, even though the wind was blowing, the man's clothes did not move, which is why he thinks it was a ghost. Then they're, you know, laying in bed. Frank quietly speculates that you know, had that man been a former lover of yours that you met in the army? And Claire becomes really offended, saying that you know, I would never do such a thing to you. And then only after the argument ends does Claire wonder if maybe Frank was opening the door to a conversation, that maybe he had his own affair or something while they were separated by the war, and then they go to sleep. So quite a bit of stuff, and that's not even the iceberg of the stuff that happens.

Speaker 2: 8:55

Yeah, and just based on the length of that summary and we know how concise Savannah is, you can tell that there are a lot of details going on, and we mentioned this is historical, so that's part of the reason for this, and I think, coming from this from a perspective of I have not read the whole story, I think that's where I kept asking Savannah for reassurance, like I'm assuming all these details come into play right, we're doing more than just grounding us in the world, and you can kind of assume that, like if it's being this phenomenon that this story is, I can pretty confidently assume that these details were well placed. So then it's just a matter of how does that work in the story as a whole and preparing us to understand what this is going to be from a reader's perspective. And that's how we address that with the first chapter questions.

Speaker 1: 9:47

So why don't we go ahead and yeah, let me interrupt you there a second because this so I did the word count and we're at about 7,500 words for this first chapter, which is quite a bit. I don't know how that compares to the rest of the chapters, but that's just something to help keep in mind. We're also you know we said the summary is long. There's a lot of detail, a lot of context, depending on what you're used to reading. I think what was interesting for us is that we're not used to necessarily reading historical all the time. So, like Abigail said, is it a lot of detail or is this something that's very specific to the genre? We don't know for sure, but it was an interesting experience to feel that and then question it and say does it matter, is it impactful? And you know we'll get into that more later.

Speaker 2: 10:33

I really like reading historical. Kristen Hanna is arguably my favorite commercial author. I'd say you know I was going to say my author and she's. She's up there like I. I love kristen hannah, but what I actually love about her are her later books, which have been all historical and you can tell she does the research. So when I'm reading something like that with her with her first chapters, it was just interesting to see like I'd have to go back and now compare like is, but so I don't. I wouldn't say that I read historical all the time, but I do love chris and hannis. Now I'm like in that boat of like what is this for the genre?

Speaker 2: 11:09

yeah but I wonder what the? Do you know what the word count for outlander is as a whole? Because this book is long as a whole. So when you look at 7500 words for the opening in comparison to the book as a whole, is it pretty relative to what a normal scene length would be for or a normal first chapter would be for like a 90,000 word novel.

Speaker 1: 11:32

So I just Googled it. I don't know how accurate this is, but I Googled it. Google says it's 305,000 words.

Speaker 2: 11:41

I would assume that based on the audio length is 33 hours. Yes, I would assume that's on the audio length is 33 hours.

Speaker 1: 11:46

Yes, I would assume that's correct, but again don't know for sure.

Speaker 2: 11:48

Yeah, think about that too like, obviously, if you are writing your debut historical fiction novel, you're probably not going to write 300 plus.

Speaker 1: 11:57

Yeah, we're in plus words, right, but there's some interesting stuff that I didn't share with you yesterday, that I found on the internet, that we'll talk about later, that we'll go back to this conversation. So let's go into the uh, big picture questions and you can you can take over that okay.

Speaker 2: 12:13

so we're gonna look at the key first chapter questions. Remember that these come you haven't listened to an episode before. We pulled these from paul and eunee, the Writer's Guide to Beginnings. I really encourage you to read that book. It's a great resource by a literary agent and an author on what to look for in a first chapter in order to understand what the story is going to be about and if it's going to be setting us up for a pretty successful story, keeping in mind that you can write the best first chapter in the world, but if you don't maintain the quality of that storytelling for the rest of the story, then it will fall off. So we're always looking at these examples of first chapters and hopefully carrying what you set up as expectations for the reader into the novel itself. You got to pay off those setups, right.

Speaker 2: 12:55

So the first question of this we like to kind of categorize and what are the big elements of fiction we're looking at as well? And the first one is genre. And the question is what kind of story is it? Remembering that when we're talking about genre, there are two types of genres Savannah and I like to talk about Content genre and commercial genre, commercial genre where are you going to market the story? If you go in a bookstore, where are we going to fall? And that's how you're going to sell the book and content genre. What type of story is it? So? What can we expect for common conventions, the bookatory scenes and things like that?

Speaker 1: 13:26

Yeah. So if we kind of merge what Amazon has this listed under, we're looking at a historical time travel fantasy romance which all of that, no matter how you parse it.

Speaker 1: 13:36

If you say historical romance, historical fantasy, historical time travel, time travel romance, it all gets you to the same place. So we're in that realm. Commercially and content wise I would say we're in the romance territory. I haven't studied this book enough to know if the internal genre is worldview or if it's maybe a little morality. Because there is this central question of is it okay to love two men equally? Am I cheating on my spouse? If I've gone back in time and fallen in love, I know that usually characters in morality stories are not great people at the beginning of the story. So that makes me lean a little bit more towards worldview. But again, I haven't studied it so in depth where I could say for sure.

Speaker 2: 14:21

Yeah. So, coming from this, not having read this novel and probably being influenced by understanding what the commercial genre is, I would argue that it's also going to be love as a content genre. When you read this first chapter, those stakes are not obvious, but the romance is what we're focused on. I would say, like the relationship. If anything, it doesn't feel necessarily like this is a courting type of romance, right, because she's married to Frank, so Claire's married to Frank already. I know we're going to get into it.

Speaker 2: 14:52

Sorry if it's a spoiler, but Jamie is going to be the other love interest and he is the ghost-like character at the end of the chapter. So you're going to be dealing with a big love triangle and I think that ultimately you're introducing all three characters in this opening, so we can see that this is where dynamic is going to be interesting. For you to say worldview or morality, I would not have guessed morality, and all based on not knowing the story yeah and I don't think that I could confidently actually even argue what the internal arc is until I read the full story.

Speaker 2: 15:27

My gut would immediately go to worldview because I actually feel and historical, I think in general you get this feeling that it almost feels like it's going to be internally driven as the dominant genre when you're reading especially openings like this because there's so much layering with backstory. So it's like, okay, we're spending a lot of time really getting to know her character and where she's at and like what she's dealing with. But ultimately, when I looked at both scenes now I try to say what are we really dealing with with a goal and what is it? A shift and change in each of these it deals with frank and Claire and their relationship, even if it feels like we're just kind of like walking through the motions, the loudest one being the question of infidelity at the end of chapter one, which is why I would land on love.

Speaker 1: 16:13

Yeah, and so I could totally argue worldview as well, because I think you can kind of translate the other internal genres into worldview easy. So like we could say something like her worldview when she lands back in time in a future chapter is I need to get back, I love my husband, that's the right thing to do, I belong there. And then her worldview changes as she's in this relationship with Jamie and back in time. But there you know, there is that flavor of is it okay to be doing what I'm doing? I feel like a bad person and there's and Claire's not the most religious person, but religious stuff comes into it, especially back in history.

Speaker 1: 16:48

So I don't know without further analysis, but I think we're confident saying it's romance. There's either a worldview, internal arc or a morality, and then there's also an action piece to this which sounds strange. But when we get back in time there are life and death stakes. They're in the middle of a war, so that makes sense. In this first chapter do we get a glimpse of that Kind of Not really stakes-wise but more in the? There's blood on the doorsteps, chickens are being sacrificed, there's possibly a ghost outside, whether we believe that or not. So we get little flavors saying that there's something in that realm, something in a paranormal realm, something in a fantasy realm too. So the flavors are all there.

Speaker 2: 17:32

It's just let's see where we go from there. Yeah, and it's interesting, we can talk about this when we get to the scene structure more but the blood, the romance, notice that those are all very external things. Right, this first chapter is dominantly internal, I would say like it's dominantly internal, but those moments are very loud and grab your attention quickly because they're they're happening outside of us, right, and that tends to be something that can just be like oh, I'm now paying attention to that. So even if I, like I would say that there, I would argue there aren't really like death stings on the page in this opening chapter. But exactly what you said, there are hints of it. It's like we still get that sense of something's going on here. What's it going to lead to that?

Speaker 1: 18:17

pull us in into that and the reason that's important, because sometimes writers will ask me, especially if they're writing a paranormal or fantasy or sci-fi and the character starts in the normal world. So in the normal world there might not be elements of that. You know magic or whatever, and it's like that's fine because you're right. In a normal world if we don't have magic, it makes sense. But how do we still signal to the reader don't be surprised if in chapter four there's a magician. Or don't be surprised if there's faster than light travel. You know. So we do need to have those flavors, even as subtle as they are, in this opening chapter to set up the correct reader expectations.

Speaker 2: 18:54

And we can talk about this in the next question that deals with plot. But also to build off of that, we talk so much, and you said part of this is because Frank is such a history buff, right. We talk so much, and you said part of this is because Frank is such a history buff, right. So he really nerds out when it gets into details of history, which grounds his character but also gives us context, because there's a lot of discussion about myths. Yes, why? The Scotch Highlands in particular have a lot of these superstitions and dealings with myths. Nothing is in your face happening on the page that is threatening Claire's life or Frank's life. Because the superstitions I think that we believe in the ghost aspect of Jamie at the end more because we had the whole discussion about myths and we saw the blood stuff.

Speaker 2: 19:36

So that can kind of we'll lead into the plot question, because it might build off of that. But the second question, just a plot, and the question is what is the story about? What is it really about? Or what is that big picture? If we were looking at a big picture. Developmental level what?

Speaker 1: 19:52

is the story about.

Speaker 1: 19:53

Yeah, and I'm very interested to see your take on this, not knowing the rest of the story, but for me it's you read because you want to find out who's she going to choose Frank or Jamie once she goes back in time, and where is she going to end up. We also, in this first chapter, get little hints. I guess that more speak to the next question of character. But we know she wants to have a child, things like that. So these are the type of questions we have which again, go more towards that relationship angle, that love angle, more so than any of the other genres we mentioned.

Speaker 2: 20:22

Yes, and so knowing what the story is about, obviously I've heard of Outlander, I just haven't read it.

Speaker 1: 20:28

Or seen the show right.

Speaker 2: 20:36

I have not seen the show either, so I think that that is immediately what I would assume the question would be, because I knew ahead of time that there was going to be this time traveling back in time.

Speaker 2: 20:41

There's going to be this man that she falls in love with. I don't actually know if I knew, though, about the husband until I read the first chapter, so as soon as I put those pieces together, I could assume that's going to be the question. Looking at the first chapter from Blind's Eye, like just coming into this cold, my attention really goes to the question, not so much as a love triangle, but more so of the marriage itself, right, and it would be more about a marital question, mainly again pulling me into that, her immediate anger. She's quick to anger when he asks her about infidelity. How could you assume that I would like, how could you ask that question? She gets really upset about it, right, and it's not until the very last line or two that she realizes maybe he had an affair, right? So my thought, just coming in cold from this first chapter, would be this is going to be about can this marriage survive, which it kind of is. Can?

Speaker 1: 21:37

this marriage survive, which it kind of is?

Speaker 2: 21:38

yeah right, which it kind of is, but then of course the depth of that is going to be pulled in with the, with the love triangle which you need, a love triangle in any romance look how cool the one is here because, like you said, in the first chapter we see the ghost which we find out later is actually jamie's ghost.

Speaker 1: 21:55

So you, you have a love triangle, but separated by two timelines. That's really cool. Yeah, I also think her reaction to his question about was there someone back in the war is a great setup for what comes later, because she has such a visceral reaction to no, I did not cheat on you. And then she falls in love with a man in a different timeline and questions herself the whole entire time Well, and that's really hard too.

Speaker 2: 22:17

I mean because I'm assuming Frank did have an affair and that's going to come out. I can't remember actually, but regardless they had this marriage already was up against extreme hardship because the war separated them for six years. Frank says we saw each other three times. One time for only a day in six years. And now they're back together and the whole reason why they're in the Scottish Highlands is because they thought it would be a good place to revive their marriage. So we know they're there to try to do that, not because they've hated each other, but just because it's been a long time. And she is struggling to get pregnant and you can tell that both of them want that, so that adds hardship in a marriage. Them want that, so that adds hardship in a marriage. So the stakes are high in their own ways, even if we haven't necessarily gotten to the question of who will she pick by the end.

Speaker 1: 23:04

Yeah, and which is really cool because think about the two perspectives, like if you had written this book, our listener, you and someone who has cold to it is kind of getting the gist, and someone who has read it is also able to say like this is what we're leading into.

Speaker 1: 23:19

That means it works right, we've done our job. So the other thing I wanted to talk about in plot because this could confuse people is there is a war when we land back in the 1800s and there is like danger that claire is consistently like having to save jamie from, or vice versa, and it's so interesting. I love seeing books where the action is more from or vice versa, and it's so interesting. I love seeing books where the action is more of a subplot, because it's hard to pull off, because how do you always make the love stakes louder than the action stakes? Right? But it's just really important because or it's really impactful because we have that love foundation set up. So it's kind of like her growing love for him spurs her to risk herself to rescue him or do something you know within that action plot, when you know sometimes we could argue she could literally just walk back to the stepping stones and try to go home, no, so it's just really interesting to see the dynamic work.

Speaker 2: 24:15

The third question is the point of view and who is telling the story.

Speaker 1: 24:19

Yep. So we're in Claire's point of view. It's, I believe it's first person. Yep, first person. She's the only point of view. Character Makes total sense. Why the author chose this? Because it's her story. Right, it's her love story. She loves Frank, she loves Jamie. She's experiencing that like cognitive dissonance of going back in time and struggling to figure out her bearings and things like that. So I will say in the opening chapter there's like a little flavor of omniscient. Did you catch that in like the very first sentence? Yes, just common. It's kind of like usually tacked on, you know, and we kind of, I think a historical, especially because we're doing a lot of groundwork with history itself.

Speaker 2: 24:58

But Diane Gabaldon so she does a really great job at weaving history, descriptions of history that have relevance or I assume we're going to have relevance through context, and I use the Giver of Stars by Jojo Moyes a lot when I talk about creating backstory as a beat within a scene and it has to have its own commandments and you have to have like a bigger back.

Speaker 2: 25:22

It's like a bigger moment of backstory than just a line or two of description.

Speaker 2: 25:25

And it's interesting when you talk about the point of view.

Speaker 2: 25:34

Having that first person from Claire allows us to go experience a moment with her that I think grounds characters, grounds relationships and grounds world in a moment that she's explaining to us, like in particular in this first chapter, when they're talking about her expletives, like her language at that when they were having tea, and you get to experience that as a moment, which I think it's increasing the word count, but it's far more interesting and there's a lot of character groundwork done in how she responds to that and how she's thinking about it.

Speaker 2: 26:04

And when we say a lot's happening in this chapter is because there are actually like a few. I think there are a few moments like that that happen within a scene itself. So using that first person, I think, is more advantageous when you do something like that, because you can take us more into a personal moment. That does do that backstory work in an effective storytelling way baked within a scene Love stories as a whole. I don't think it's uncommon to have first person point of views of all of the lovers in the story and following Claire.

Speaker 2: 26:38

It makes sense. Of course, you know I'm coming in from this cold, but if Jamie's in one timeline and Frank's in another, it sounds like you're probably going to spend a lot more time with one over the other. And if you were trying to involve everyone, is it just going to be distracting us rather than pulling us into the main story question, which is who is she going to choose?

Speaker 1: 26:58

yeah, so most of the story actually takes place in the past, so we are only with frank for a very short period of time, which you wouldn't know because you didn't read it. But yeah, and that's exactly right, is it's we get? It would be crazy to have, because I've actually seen some people try to do something like exactly what you just said. Where it's imagine we have Frank's point of view in the present and the reason is always well, readers need to know what's going on. And then we have imagine Jamie and Claire's in the past, which is now Claire's present. It would just be so much going on and it's kind of like do we need to know what's going on with Frank, or does it create a better reading experience to be ignorant of it like Claire?

Speaker 2: 27:40

is and I think ignorance is the key word there, right, Because I think that's the. When people are choosing between do I have multi-POV or single POV, I think the question I'm always asking them is what's the value of having more than one, right? So it's like what are they bringing? That's different, and if you are writing a multi-POV, each character has a point of view. Best be having their own character arc. Now, great storytelling, main characters are all going to have their own arc, but do they need it to the depth of structural execution that the first person point of view is having? I would say Jamie probably is going to need to have that growth of change, but probably not to of like Claire if she's the one going through. The main question Is that right?

Speaker 1: 28:20

Well, and it's interesting because, Jamie, I would totally say he has an arc of change, but he's also very like what he's thinking is kind of what he says, but it's almost like, imagine if you were to have his point of view. It probably wouldn't be advantageous if most of his external actions matches internal thoughts. And this is just who his character is. And listeners feel free to disagree if you interpret it different. But yeah, I think it's interesting to think about why she chose to do what she did and it's also interesting to think about a 305,000 word novel for one point of view.

Speaker 2: 28:55

No, when you were saying I'll also, he says exactly what he means. I don't know if you watched the Office, but all I could see is the scene with Kelly. Daryl is the most confusing man I have ever met.

Speaker 1: 29:08

Yeah, that's exactly what he says yeah, and then she says the opposite too yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 29:15

Okay, so that's point of view. The fourth question deals with character, and the character question is which character should we care about the most?

Speaker 1: 29:22

yeah. So this one's funny because I was thinking about that this morning. Obviously we care about claire. There's a lot that we root for her on in this first chapter. Obviously we want the relationship to to work. I even related to her and rooted for her with her little adventure of finding plants. You know, like I want her to find the plants she wants and so I care about her. But I realized I am equally invested in the relationship as a character. Like I felt it as big as I felt Claire, which is cool.

Speaker 2: 29:51

I did not dislike Frank.

Speaker 1: 29:54

Yeah, I didn't dislike Frank either.

Speaker 2: 29:56

No, so that's where it's like I I, when you're going through, and I'm thinking about, who do I really care about? I guess this was one of the. I enjoy both characters. I guess, like my level is like, who do I care about the most? Well, we're following claire, so we're going to care about claire, right, but I didn't really feel like these stakes. They're like, it's not like the, like the actions and it's not like the action stakes are right there where it's like they are in danger.

Speaker 2: 30:20

I care about them in that way. You care about them more in the sense of like, getting to know them and growing a relationship with them and coming to care about them as a human being, right, yeah, like, when I found like the moments that stand out to me where I'm like, oh, like Claire starting to become my friend, that's how it felt to me Like, out of all of them, it was like, okay, like we could sit down and have a tea in her case and a cup of coffee in my case and we would get to know each other and I would be growing more affectionate and, you know, concerned for her concerns and whatever they are, as she is internalizing everything because of what she's doing and it's like, okay, what do I care about? Like you said, the relationship From page one. I think that's what you start to care about. That care for the relationship grows as you get to know the characters more with each page.

Speaker 2: 31:11

So, from the beginning, when you know this marriage has suffered six years of distance outside of their own will thanks to war, that immediately is going to put trauma on you regardless. Right, right, I care about both of them immediately, just because of the unfortunate situation that brought them to where they are today and you're rooting for them because, like here they are, like they don't dislike each other, they obviously love each other and I think that that was such an interesting thing to see as an opening with through characters, because you're not opening with, like these characters at like really at an emotional low and like the marriage is struggling and like this is what's happening, like they genuinely love each other and they're just trying to resalvage time that they've lost. Until that very last question of did he have an affair and how he prefaces it with. If you ever had an affair, I would still love you.

Speaker 2: 32:07

There's nothing that you could do that I don't love you. That would make me not love you, and even in that I'm like, oh, he's sweet and understanding. But also, if you're saying this to protect your own, now it feels slightly manipulative. So I think that that's just something that made me. Going back to the characters, that made me think about. Am I going to dislike him? Am I going to start to like, be like is this going to be like a team Jamie or a team Frank thing? As we get more into the story, it actually doesn't sound. It sounds like that's the debate for her, yeah, but as a reader, it feels like you're going to be spending time with Jamie. So are you really going to be even like?

Speaker 1: 32:46

is there, even like a team. We are and it's funny, though, because I feel like we're so in her point of view, although we all love Jamie it it her concerns are valid. Like she's married this man. He's a great man. There's nothing wrong with him. Maybe he made some mistakes, maybe he didn't, I can't remember, but that's you know. It wouldn't work otherwise, right? So if you're writing a story that has a love triangle like this, this is where love story or love triangles break down, or when they become cheesy, when it's like obviously she's not going to choose that guy. He sucks, yes, right, or?

Speaker 2: 33:17

when they become cheesy, when it's like obviously she's not going to choose that guy, he sucks, yes, right, and then, well, I think this is so. The example that I always think about is Sweet Home, alabama. I don't know if you know that movie. So I love that movie and that is a tough choice. Because Dreamy McDreamerson, who is the the other guy, right that she's going to marry in the beginning, he's a good guy. You don't want him to be hurt, right, like, if she ends up with him it will be good, but her heart is just with Jake, right, yeah, so, but like, even like his response when she doesn't sign the divorce papers at the aisle just shows, like, even reinforces like that he's even such a good guy.

Speaker 2: 33:57

So I think actually, what was really important at the end of that movie was in the credits. They show that he gets, he finds love and gets engaged with someone else. I actually think if they didn't include that in the credits, it would have been really difficult to swallow. Yeah, because you don't want him to end up. So I'd be interested, you know and I'll finish outlander now that I've started it I'll be interested to see. Do you ever feel like, are there going to be any big unresolved reasons why she shouldn't pick Frank. It feels like immediately from the beginning. I'm like there has to be something that's going to have to tip the scale towards Jamie. I'm assuming that's who she goes with.

Speaker 1: 34:34

Well yeah.

Speaker 1: 34:36

So if you don't want to hear a spoiler, mute the podcast now. But essentially, there is multiple times throughout the story where it's like you choose what you want to do Claire, Do you want to try to get home, Do you want to stay here with me? And at some point there becomes a decision that when she makes it, she realizes because of this, Frank probably won't be born. So there's no opportunity for well assuming assuming she's right. That means there's no opportunity for us to get that feeling at the end of like oh, at least he found a bride and he's all happy, Right, it's like he didn't, maybe doesn't even exist anymore.

Speaker 2: 35:13

But that's a bigger.

Speaker 1: 35:18

I mean like, even like when she stays he doesn't get to. Well, there's a decision that she would have had to make that if she made it, probably he's not gonna. Because she, because she knows the history, because she's been with frank and he knows about his ancestor, jack randall, and so she realizes, because of the way things are playing out in the 1800s, I don't think that we're going to get to the point where frank is born oh, that is heavy, because see I was getting.

Speaker 2: 35:39

I get full body if she stays in the past, then he still has a chance at being born, but it's like, no, that's over, that's, that's heavy which in a way like it.

Speaker 1: 35:51

It sucks for frank right, but also it's kind of like, okay, well, at least he's not devastated and never getting his bride back. I don't know which is worse, but I don't know, that's yeah, that's yeah that's a whole conversation for another day.

Speaker 2: 36:04

That's more I thought it was going to be like, he can still get his chance at surviving, at being at existing yeah, that's interesting.

Speaker 1: 36:10

Yeah, we'll see. That's a conversation for another day, that's another question.

Speaker 2: 36:13

Okay, so we'll move on to the fifth question, which deals with setting and the questions where and when does the story take place? Obviously before it being historical.

Speaker 1: 36:21

Yep, so in the past we're in the 18th century, we're in Scotland. In the present we're in the 20th century in Scotland as well. So past I mean passed by, as in we're with Jamie. That becomes Claire's present timeline, which makes it confusing Right 18th century with Jamie 20th century with Frank.

Speaker 2: 36:39

I think it's really good that you decipher that, because when you're writing, the past can become the present and it should still be the present. Now you just have changed where we're set right um time travel when you do that. That's important it's hard yeah, yeah, okay, and obviously I'm assuming culture is going to come more into the story. Like you can even see, it just Frank's nerding out about history right from the beginning and all the talk about myths and the war aspects. All of that's going to come into play in the story.

Speaker 1: 37:12

the 20th century women are allowed to do more things, like Claire was a nurse and she you know, whatever. And then she goes back in time and it's like I own my woman. So she deals with all kinds of different issues, and then there's a war, you know so.

Speaker 2: 37:26

That's like a whole nother layer too, if she stays there's way more layers, yeah, so it's really cool.

Speaker 1: 37:31

The historical element really allows for that, which is one of the fun parts of the story.

Speaker 2: 37:35

Okay, and I think that's going to feed into the last two questions dealing with core emotion and stakes as well, particularly the stakes question. I'm going to group them together.

Speaker 1: 37:43

Yeah, we talked about emotion already.

Speaker 2: 37:45

Yeah, so emotion how should they feel about what's happening? Stakes why should we care about what happens next? Or what are the stakes and why should we care about what happens next?

Speaker 1: 37:54

Yeah, so, emotion wise, it's kind of like we're concerned. We want to know what's going to happen with Claire and Frank.

Speaker 1: 38:00

We hope that she gets what she wants and they rekindle their relationship, blah, blah blah. Curiosity wise, I'm thinking am I really curious about anything in particular? I'm more concerned than I am curious, I think, which is fine. And then why should we care about what happens next? Well, we know that. Um again, we have the back cover copy as context, so we can infer that at some point soon she's going to be traveling back in time. So we have that to contend with. And we also, frank, dropped a bomb on us at the end of the last chapter, the first chapter, that's why I'm turning the page.

Speaker 1: 38:31

Yeah that bomb yeah so combine all that and you've got a winning recipe specifically with the slow burn of that bomb.

Speaker 2: 38:38

Yeah, because it's like she like responds and then she internalizes it.

Speaker 1: 38:42

Yeah yeah, it's a good, good little bomb there, but so okay. So a lot of good things working to tell us what kind of book we're in for. There's a lot to unpack there and something. This is the thing I saved to tell you. Today.

Speaker 1: 38:55

I found this article with the author and because I was looking up, I'm like okay, because again it's been a while since I've read this. So I was thinking about genre and I'm like what is the climax? Because that usually helps me decide on genre. And I found this article I think it's on her website and she says my first book, outlander, is shaped like three overlapping triangles. The action rises naturally toward three climaxes Claire's decision at Craig Nodoon to stay in the past. Claire's rescue of Jamie from Wentworth, which is a prison, and her saving his soul at the Abbey. So I thought that was really cool to think about, how she thought it's almost like how you talk about the three levels of stakes a lot, which is like we have the life and death stakes of saving him from Wentworth deciding to stay in the past and give up that future with Frank.

Speaker 1: 39:45

That's more of the love. And then saving his soul is love and it's also like the more. It's more than that. So.

Speaker 2: 39:52

I love that and also I'm assuming there's probably the main genre. This would actually be interesting to look at. So sometimes when you have equally weighted psychological, professional and physical stakes, it feels like OK, this is really more of a worldview story. And then you have to have each of your big external moments need their climax right Now. Subplots need their full three-act structure, or beginning middle end, if you don't want to say three acts, so subplots also need to have their climax right. So it's interesting to see if you were to analyze this, like at the end of it, with each of those climactic moments. Do they feel like they're a subplots climax or do they feel like they're equally weighted climaxes?

Speaker 1: 40:34

and if they're equally weighted, climaxes is worldview the content genre I don't think worldview is, because I think when you read it and someday you'll let us know how you feel about this when you watch?

Speaker 1: 40:44

it or read it, you do feel like it's a love story. I think when you're in the past and there's war stuff, obviously that's like a big uh hurdle that they have to get over to have their love story. So I would say my gut says no, I don't think they're evenly weighted. I think it's very significant, obviously, that she saves him from danger and things like that, but it's at the end. There's, you know, parts where he's uh again spoiler, you want to mute me but there's parts at the end where he's injured but he's recovering and he's just like I have so much trauma from all that's happened to me over the course of the story you should just leave. So he gives her options to leave and she stays. But to me I see those like those are the romance.

Speaker 2: 41:25

You know she's choosing him yeah, that yeah, and it seems like it would go in that I would say that you're probably onto it. Based on just how you've described things, I think there would be a hierarchy of importance in these moments and that, regardless, they're all dovetailing. So with each one, they're all dovetailing into the love story, which, again, is the mark of a great story. You need subplots to dovetail into the main story. You need a subplot to dovetail into the main story.

Speaker 1: 41:47

But I thought you would love hearing that, because who doesn't love a behind the scenes of a process? And I could just envision those three triangles and like the ups and the downs and he has to be okay at this scenario to get into this scenario, and then they have to fall in love and whatever. So it was really cool yeah.

Speaker 2: 42:02

Okay.

Speaker 1: 42:02

So we're going to get into the scene structure part, which is probably what everyone's been waiting for, because it is kind of challenging so I'm.

Speaker 1: 42:10

I'm gonna give us the lay of the land really quick, uh, and then we can talk about the details. So abigail and I landed on. There's two scenes and the first part goes from the very. The first scene goes from the very first sentence to this line that I'm going to find, I think, where she says the curse word. She says Jesus H, roosevelt, christ, I said, and drop the sugar, lump neatly into Frank's coffee. So we think that's where the first scene ends. I did not, uh, parse out the word count, but it feels like a larger part of the chapter much larger and there's a reason for that.

Speaker 1: 42:43

So if we go back and if you're flipping through the book, if we go back through to the beginning of the chapter, there's a part where, in the very beginning, claire's like walking downstairs. She says I met Miss Baird in the hall on my way out. So we're in the present. And then there's a part where shortly after that, so it's within like the first four paragraphs, she shifts into backstory or like a kind of a flashback. So it's of that morning when they were in bed and Mrs Baird was vacuuming outside because she doesn't want to like hear bed spring squeak and things like that. And then there's a whole lot that unfolds about basically how we got to this point of Claire on her way out of the bed and breakfast to go meet Frank, claire on her way out of the bed and breakfast to go meet Frank.

Speaker 1: 43:30

So I could see where and this is where we were initially confused we're like well, are there three scenes? And kind of yes, kind of no. So kind of the flashback equals its own scene. However, it's a scene. We call it a beat. So it's like a beat with its own structure within that first scene. Okay, so the first scene. Do you want to walk us through the commandments of this?

Speaker 2: 43:49

yeah, yeah, all right, so quickly. What are the commandments? Five commandments of storytelling come from story grid. Inciting incident is an unexpected disturbance that either creates the goal for the scene right or it changes the way the character needs to and changes the approach the character needs to. It changes the approach the character needs to take in order to achieve their goal.

Speaker 2: 44:12

The turning point is the peak I like to call it the peak conflict, or it's like the peak progressive complication, so the main conflict of the scene that's going to thrust the main character into a crisis decision.

Speaker 2: 44:25

The crisis decision is a best bet choice or a conciliable goods decision, which is an inverse of a best bet choice. The crisis decision is a best-fed choice or a conciliable goods decision, which is an inverse of a best-fed choice. So this is the dilemma the character faces. This is the main anchor of a scene, because this is what defines how a character acts and moves forward, which will advance the plot and help the character right. The climax is the direct action that the character takes based on their crisis, and the resolution are the events that happen afterwards and show us where the character lands externally and internally, or literally and psychologically. So those are what the commandments are For this first one. It's funny because I always say for whatever reason, I understand the inciting incident, but when it comes to very layered scenes like this, I have a hard time pulling out the inciting incident.

Speaker 1: 45:12

I'm sure Savannah will have to To be fair.

Speaker 2: 45:14

This one's hard? Yeah, I think that you have, but even in general I'm like why do I have a hard time landing?

Speaker 1: 45:19

on the inciting incident.

Speaker 2: 45:20

I think the big thing I'm always trying to think about is how do we connect everything to the same overall arc in the scene, right? So you have to start with your character's goal. If the goal's not there, it's what's going to be created. So the goal for this first scene is really meeting up with Frank. Right, it's like she wants to meet up with Frank.

Speaker 1: 45:39

I'm going to chime in and read what it says so that people can see what this translates to. So there's a line that says I met Miss Baird in the front hall on my way out, and then later it says in dialogue I'm just going down to the village to meet Frank, We'll be back for tea.

Speaker 2: 45:55

So simple, very simple goal, but it's there, very simple, right, and you don't need a huge goal. Sometimes, right, the inciting incidents I said is when she bumps into Frank, because she didn't expect to bump into him in where she does, and this was a tricky one. So I would say, out of the, out of the commitments that I'm gonna propose, that one was the hardest for me yeah, and I think so.

Speaker 1: 46:19

There's a couple things we'll say about the scene. One of them is like is that the strongest? Probably not. Also, the stakes in this scene are really low. We'll get to that in a second, but what notice at this point, if you're following along in the text, we have skipped that whole flashback. So we're going to come back to that in part of the, the setup, the exposition, the, you know, getting us ready for the conflict. So I agree with abigail it's it's not that she met frank. She was expecting to run into frank at some point, so it it's not that she did, it's how and when she did it that we think counts as that inciting incident, because now that she's met him what are they going to do?

Speaker 2: 46:58

Yeah. So the turning point. When I was talking to Savannah, I had two options. I'm going to tell you the one I side with as well as the one that I was thinking about. So I said, okay, we mentioned earlier, like the blood on the doorstep is loud. So I'm like, oh well, that could be a turning point because Frank, in his like nerding out about this, immediately right Runs off and there is blood here and she actually has some contemplation about, like if there's a maniac around killing people, I don't know how I feel about being left alone, right? So there is that potential of sending her into a crisis of do I follow him or not?

Speaker 2: 47:29

The other one is when Frank decides to have Sherry with Bainbridge and she decides to stay behind. I actually side with the latter of those when Frank decides to have Sherry with Bainbridge, and the reason for that is because the blonde part leads into important context. Again, she's showing this on the page through context, which is why it's valuable. That leads to the discussion about myths and why myths are so important, and that sets us up to have our supernatural dial turned up when Frank sees what he thinks could be a ghost because of the not moving clothes, right so, and she kind of even like jokes around with him about the ghost until he says right about the clothes. And that's the second scene.

Speaker 2: 48:13

Yeah, we'll get there, ultimately I went with Frank decides to have Sherry with Bainbridge, you know, notice that that crisis, that turning point that lends her to the crisis of do I go and join him or not, actually warrants the backstory. That works as its own potential scene, but I would call it a feat, so I I would leave it there because that, ultimately, what's interesting is both of those, if you choose either one, both. Both of the climaxes are she stays behind, but in different ways, and the resolution is going to be pretty quick because she actually ends with more of that backstory than returning to where she is. So the she decides to stay behind. She's just going to chill out at home or chill out at miss baird's right.

Speaker 1: 48:56

So so okay. So we have kind of a low stakes situation and, however, given the context, like abigail said, her goal and frank's goal is to spend time together. So by her deciding that she's not going to partake in this discussion of history and local myths and she's going to go back to the room alone, it's not getting her what she wants. Necessarily. She would just rather be alone than deal with what's going to happen at the street.

Speaker 2: 49:21

Yeah, and I think that that's the big part of it, right, because the backstory reveals that I don't think OK.

Speaker 2: 49:28

So this is, this is what's tricky. She uses colorful language, right, and she uses it like not regularly, it's just because she burns her hands, is what she explains, and Bainbridge, like super, judges her about it To the point where they have to explain why she has colorful language. Because she was pulling shrapnel out of men in the war. So she picked up this language like and if you're talking about roles of women back then and in 20th century, this is all playing into context, right? Yeah, so this is kind of setting this up. Now what I think is interesting about this decision do I go with bainbridge or not? Like he doesn't even seem like he's like this, like terrible guy and and it doesn't really necessarily feel like Frank is totally being disloyal to her by going with Bainbridge. But at the same time, like in the backstory, it's kind of like why are you feeling like you have to explain something about your wife versus either just like joke along with it or defend it like it she was switch?

Speaker 1: 50:31

under the rug of the love triangle, because when she's with jamie it's not like that.

Speaker 2: 50:35

So that's a big difference culturally and within the two relationships, which is really interesting so that's when it's like you know, and she doesn't even walk out seeming like she's like in our marriage, like I feel like you you didn out. Seeming like she's like in our marriage, like I feel like you didn't defend me, like she's not communicating that through us, through interiority, so we don't get the sense of like this was tremendously painful to her, if anything. Like she's very steadfast in her confidence in herself and drops the sugar in those, like the sugar cube in her tea. Like I love that last line, right, she's very you can tell like she's a strong world woman, right. But it's interesting to go there because when we do talk about is there friction in the marriage, that is the moment that I think creates it.

Speaker 1: 51:22

Yeah, and it leads kind of to what's coming next, which we'll talk about. But let's go back to that backstory piece a little bit, because there's we like talk about beats we've done episodes on this before but it's basically like how, what are the sections that are moving the scene forward? So there's a part where we go back to that morning and we hear about miss bane, mrs baird vacuuming outside their door when they're, you know, kind of having a private moment, and you can infer that there's a structure there. So it's a little bit longer of a flashback than you know. Just a couple sentences of context, and because it's longer, we need that structure in there to show us what.

Speaker 1: 51:57

You know, what was the conflict that morning, what was the decision that they made, and it keeps it interesting. So it's not just like this is what happened and it's all boring information. It's like there was conflict, there was flirting, there was good stuff, like this is what happened and it's all boring information. It's like there was conflict, there was flirting, there was good stuff too. Um, so I think within, if you're looking at the scene and we don't have to go through every piece but when you're looking at it, just say what's going on in these pieces and how did the author make it interesting? Because there is a lot of information and the stakes are low. So that's what really interests me is I'm like, yeah, there's a lot of stuff, but I wasn't mad at any of it this whole time.

Speaker 2: 52:31

Right, so it worked. I found it very challenging to analyze, yeah.

Speaker 1: 52:37

But it works. Yeah, exactly, okay, so let's go to scene two and let me read this line that's going to kind of give us context. So this is where we're getting the goal. And right after that, Jesus H Roosevelt, Christ line. It says after a peaceful and not unpleasant sit with Miss Baird, I made my way upstairs to ready myself before Frank came home. So that's our goal. Very simple again.

Speaker 2: 53:02

Yep, yep, I'm going to get ready, right. Yep, and this one's a little bit easier for me, I feel like when breaking it down, because it did feel like not in your face stakes and that they're confronting this right now, but it's going to deal with the ghost-like appearance man watching Claire from outside.

Speaker 2: 53:22

Yeah so in him seeing this, the turning point is going to be the question about being infidelity, right, did she ever have an affair? So he asked her they're having actually a very flirty, intimate moment, right. And he asked her if she knew any Scottish men when she was a nurse. And then he proposes you know, if you ever ever had anything, if you ever had an affair, I would understand, right. So that kind of sends her into this crisis of do I defend myself or not?

Speaker 1: 53:56

yeah, it's more like how is she going to respond?

Speaker 2: 53:58

right, right. So it's like I think that and the climax is that she's very offended, right, yeah, and she immediately explains, like, like questions, challenges him. How could you even ask me that? Yeah, right, because obviously to even ask the question suggests that there are insecurities or trust issues, right, and the resolution is that they actually like I guess I'm going to emphasize that even in that climax, when she's like he goes to touch her to comfort her and she says don't touch me, right, like she's that, like he goes to touch her for to comfort her, and she says don't touch me, right, like she's that upset, and then the resolution he basically says to her you know, I would love you, no matter what, and then they kind of rekindle their moment. But it's later that she thinks the last, that big wham, last thought of I did. I answered that I of course need did not have this flaming affair, but what does that mean about him?

Speaker 1: 54:53

yep, and I think there's even a slightly different way we could look at that. As you're saying that, I'm like yes, and so I think it could also be. There's a part where frank basically says, like can you forgive me for upsetting you this badly? And then she has to decide and it's not very literal on the page, neither of these options are but she basically has to decide is she going to or not? She does, and then we have that bomb of like well, did he? And so this is a question Is that where you side more? I'm not sure. I would say, just for the sake of being devil's advocate, I will say yes.

Speaker 2: 55:28

I think either way, though, like the same place. Either way, it's not wrong.

Speaker 1: 55:30

We're getting the same place, but someone today asked me a question about crisis moments not being literal on the page, and I think this is a great example because we can understand it's. How is she going to respond either way, and she's not sitting there in bed with her hands on her hips going. Should I react poorly or should I be okay with this? Or should I forgive him or not? Right, we can infer what's going on because of all the context.

Speaker 2: 55:54

That's so interesting. So I have a client that I'm working with too, and he asked when it comes to the crisis question, do you need to have a should I type of question? And I'm like, when you're outlining or when you're looking at this as a writer, you need to write that down. Yes, like it doesn't necessarily have to be phrased with the word should, but it should be a literal question that like, even when I do the incident, outline, what, why? Like in the what I underline, like on its own thing, here's the crisis, and I underline it because that is the point of your scene right.

Speaker 1: 56:24

I think if you're not literal in the outlining or drafting phase, you risk missing it and then your draft is going to break down. So, when in doubt, be literal and then prove yourself that you can.

Speaker 2: 56:33

You don't need to write it and editing yeah. Right, and there will be cases where it works for you to write it literally. But if you are cookie cuttering it in the actual prose, that will become really flat.

Speaker 1: 56:45

Yeah, another example that is tends to kind of click in people's brain is if you're in the middle of an action scene and you're fighting, you're not going to sit on a battlefield and go. Should I go left and, like, stab those people? Or should I go right and stab those people Right, like you're? You're just going to react.

Speaker 1: 57:01

However, if we don't understand what the the stakes are or what that context is for that decision, then it's not going to work. So we need the stakes and the context built in before either a literal or inferred crisis. So I think that's a good example of it. But that brings us to the end of chapter one. So again, there's a whole lot of stuff in there, but we think it's two scenes with, in that first scene of stuff in there, right, but we think it's two scenes with, in that first scene, a lot of context, setup, exposition, backstory in a way that works and yeah, we, and if you've read it, if you read the whole novel before, like savannah, I would challenge you to all that material that is happening around the structure.

Speaker 2: 57:42

Ask yourself, go back to those first seven chapter questions and ask yourself which one of these is it benefiting and how is it creating an expectation because of how it's benefiting, because I think that's a good tool to use too when you're analyzing. Do I have strong first pages? Go through those questions and ask yourself all these extra details, are we having added weight? Or are the details and descriptions or interiorities serving one of the seven questions? The purposes?

Speaker 1: 58:08

of those seven elements. A bad example is if in this first chapter and first scene we had Frank go into like a diatribe about the war, it doesn't really matter right now. We know that there was a war back in his ancestor's time. We don't need to know more than that. So you can just kind of say like first, what is the present prompting? So are there moments in the present story that's prompting the window for backstory or exposition to come through? And then also, like Abigail said, what point is it serving? And if you can't find a good answer to either of those, you probably don't need it.

Speaker 1: 58:42

That's right, yeah, so we're very interested to hear what you guys think of this. If you agree, if you can see it better now that we broke it down, if you disagree, we're happy to hear that as well, so let us know.

Speaker 2: 58:54

Yeah, and thanks again, savannah, for being here. Thank you to all our listeners who are here. We love doing these first chapters. They challenge us in big ways as well, and I can't wait to bring more material to you soon.

Speaker 1: 59:17

So that's it for today's episode. As always, thank you so much for tuning in and for showing your support. If you want to check out any of the links I mentioned in this episode, you can find them in the show notes listed in the description of each episode inside your podcast player or at savannahgilbocom forward slash podcast. If you're an Apple user, I'd really appreciate it if you took a few seconds to leave a rating and a review. Your ratings and reviews tell Apple that this is a podcast that's worth listening to and, in turn, your reviews will help this podcast get in front of more fiction writers just like you. And while you're there, go ahead and hit that follow button, because there's going to be another brand new episode next week, full of actionable tips, tools and strategies to help you become a better writer. So I'll see you next week and until then, happy writing.