Speaker 1: 0:43

It's very, very easy to go astray and sort of go for the shiny object right and say, oh shoot. Looking back, did that even meet my goal? Or did that meet what I thought success?

Speaker 2: 0:54

looked like yes, that's happening, where you're making your own decisions that have consequences, both good and bad, and then also, the landscape is changing. If we could tie this back to one key point that's going to come up over and over, it's know yourself, know what you want, because as those things around you change, if you can listen to your heart, you're going to be ahead of the game. Welcome to the Fiction Writing Made Easy podcast. My name is Savannah Gilbo and I'm here to help you write a story that works. I want to prove to you that writing a novel doesn't have to be overwhelming, so each week, I'll bring you a brand new episode with simple, actionable and step-by-step strategies that you can implement in your writing right away. So, whether you're brand new to writing or more of a seasoned author looking to improve your craft, this podcast is for you. So pick up a pen and let's get started.

Speaker 2: 1:45

In today's episode, we're talking about choosing the right publishing path for you and your story, and I say we because I am joined today by Nicole Meyer, author of Upmarket Fiction turned developmental editor and book coach. Nicole has published four novels of her own, so she knows what it takes to not only do the work of writing and editing a novel from start to finish. But she also knows what it's like to face the inevitable question that every author faces, and that is, which publishing route should I choose, or which publishing path is best for me and my story. And if you're someone who's struggling with the answer to this question, then you are in luck, because Nicole is going to help you make a decision in this episode. So we're going to talk about the three main options you have for publication traditional publishing, indie publishing and hybrid publishing and then Nicole's going to share the pros and cons of each path, as well as how you can make the right choice for you in your book.

Speaker 2: 2:46

Nicole's also going to share a mistake she made when publishing her debut novel and what you can do to avoid making this mistake yourself. So it's another jam-packed episode, and I'm so excited to share this one with you. Let's go ahead and dive right into my conversation about choosing the right publishing path for you with Nicole Meyer. Hi, nicole, welcome to the Fiction Writing Made Easy podcast. I'm so excited to have you here today, hi thanks for having me.

Speaker 1: 3:15

I am thrilled because I have been listening to your podcast for so long and I love being on it.

Speaker 2: 3:20

Oh, it's so exciting. I love when full circle things like that happen, so I gave you a more official introduction earlier, but can you tell my audience in your own words who you are, what you do and things like that?

Speaker 1: 3:31

Yes, so my name is Nicole Meyer and I am an author turned book coach. I have four published novels out there. I write upmarket women's fiction and over the pandemic, like so many of us do, I shifted and decided to really follow my heart. And what I always tell people is these days I'm serving my younger self. So my younger writer self really felt like they were in a bubble, you know, alone, isolated, writing books, and sure I had some nice community. But what I love to do now as a book coach and developmental editor is walk alongside the writer from beginning to end and really help them get that story idea out of their head from beginning to end and really help them get that story idea out of their head just like you do, and craft a strong novel manuscript and really follow their novel writing dreams.

Speaker 2: 4:14

Yeah, so fun. It's like you've surrounded yourself with stories in all different kinds of ways, so that's awesome. And then do you specialize in any genres for your coaching and editing?

Speaker 1: 4:23

You know I kind of do so. It's fiction only and I really like to focus on upmarket fiction. I do have writers, you know. I have thriller writers, I have people who do autofiction, I have romance. I don't really take on sci fi or spec fiction or fantasy, so I would say upmarket fiction.

Speaker 2: 4:47

I love that, okay, and so we're going to link to all the things Nicole Meyer, in the show notes where people can find you, and things like that. But we're here today to talk about choosing your publishing path. Right, and when I think about choosing a publishing path and the writers I work with, the first word that comes up is overwhelmed. Because there are, you know, there's kind of only like we'll say, two, three options, right, but within those two to three options, there's so many things to think about. So what would you say if you're just an aspiring author, maybe you're working on your draft and you're just starting to think about this? Where do we even start?

Speaker 1: 5:18

Right. Such a good question and it's funny how the most simple question can be the most powerful. I would say it's never too early to think about your specific goals as a writer. So not the goals that your writer friend has, not the goals your neighbor thinks you should have, not the goals your critique group says you should have. But what's going to serve you? Because take it from me I definitely had goals and I strayed from them and I regretted it. So know what you want. Do you want creative control? Do you want to be a part of something big? Do you want to take it fast? Do you want to take it slow? These are the things I would love for writers to think about.

Speaker 2: 5:57

Yeah, I think that's so important because what I see and I'm sure you see this too is we commit to something like a lot of us, you know. We have this dream of becoming a traditionally published author. And it's we, you know. We kind of see our name in stars and that's very exciting for a lot of us. And then we start to learn about what are the realities of traditional publishing. And then we learn about the other options out there, like self-publishing or hybrid publishing, and those stars maybe start to dim a little. Then we start to get really overwhelmed because we're like well, I feel like I should want to go traditional, because that's what most people do, but I really am tempted by this thing over here self-publishing. So I think it's so smart to tap into, like cut out all the noise first of all, like get true to yourself what do you want? And then think about, like, where does that align with your options?

Speaker 1: 6:47

Absolutely Back in the day. You know, I've been in this industry for I don't know over a decade and there used to be just two choices right Chocolate or vanilla, and that was self-publishing or traditional, right. But now I feel like, even in the past five years, things have really opened up and so you've got well, I say four choices right Self-publishing, hybrid, small press, big, traditional. And that is really exciting because I think that more and more opportunities are coming up and fitting what fits the writer, as opposed to the reverse of that.

Speaker 2: 7:20

Right, and speaking of options that are coming up, you even see today people who start as self-published authors and then they get publishing deals. It's like going back to ice cream flavors. We kind of have a lot to work with right, which is exciting, but also tends to kind of let us feel a little more overwhelmed than maybe we used to. So you know, I think what you said the first tip for writers out there, if we're going to, if we're feeling overwhelmed, is just think about what you want. Want, really cut out the noise. Think about what you want. And then what would you say if someone's really struggling and they're like I don't really know what I want to do? I know some goals. I have, let's say, three in the self-publishing column and three points in the traditional publishing column. What would someone like that do next?

Speaker 1: 8:05

Yeah, that's great and I love it when people do lots of research on their own. So you gave a perfect example is find books you love right, you said you had three in one column, three in another and really write down you know, get granular about it. You can do make this a journal prompt, if you want. Write down why you love the book, why you love the product, why you love the book, cover anything you can think of and then also write down some, maybe some pros and cons that come along with that. Right, how did you find the book? Was it hard to find? Was it easy to find? Where is it sold?

Speaker 1: 8:38

You could flip back to the acknowledgements and kind of see who that author is thanking. But I really think doing that research first is a great idea and research is key because what I'm finding and you probably find this too is writers often don't know enough because so many sort of secrets have been kept behind the gate of oh gosh, I didn't realize that the difference between small press and big traditional is a distribution thing, it's a Salesforce thing, it's a do they accept returns from the bookstore thing. You know there are so many nuances to each of the paths that research is absolutely key.

Speaker 2: 9:14

Yeah, and it's interesting too, because what I find was writers will start researching and they think, like they go into it thinking, okay, well, I really want let's say they're saying creative control, so they really want creative control.

Speaker 2: 9:26

Then they start to dig into that and then they'll kind of come across one or two things that are deal breakers, and then they end up flipping to the other column. So one of the big ones is like traditional publishing. A lot of people want to pursue that because they think, well, they're going to handle the marketing for me and I just need to write the book and just sit back and be this author. And then they research and they find a lot of published authors who are like they are not going to handle the marketing for you, it's all on you, and then those you know that becomes a deal breaker. So it's like, well, if I'm going to be doing all this anyway. So it's interesting that you'll find pros and you'll also find cons, and I find that when I work with writers, the cons often outweigh all the other options that can be pros. Do you see something similar?

Speaker 1: 10:11

Absolutely. I think knowledge is power and, just like you said, people assume something, but once you start to dig and do the research, you realize. Okay, there are definitely pros and cons to this, and I think one thing is whatever you do, I always say treat it like opening a small business. Right, when you're launching a book, you're an entrepreneur. Gone are the days when you're just an artist. Do I need to be an advocate for myself about? And sadly, more and more things these days are being put right back on the author? Marketing is a gigantic one.

Speaker 2: 10:57

Yeah, and so can you talk a little bit about like pick three to five, whatever pros and cons of each path, and if you want to go into all four, that's cool, or we could focus on traditional and self. Those are the two big ones, but what are some things that like the highlight reel of what people can weigh between?

Speaker 1: 11:18

Okay, so I'll try and go quickly because I'm going to do four, right? Okay, let's do it.

Speaker 1: 11:22

Because I actually have intimate knowledge with two of them. So I would say self-publishing you get to keep creative control and you get to keep the money. Those are two big ones. The cons on that is you have to have discipline, because it really is all in your hands, in your lap, if you will, and you need to know how to do all the things, hire all the vendors, sell it, market it the whole nine yards. So that's self. And just as a side note here, I do truly in my heart believe self-publishing is going to be the thing in the future.

Speaker 1: 11:53

I do too, yeah, more and more people leaning this way. So I love self-publishing, yeah. And then the next one's, hybrid. I actually have four books out and my first book and my fourth book are with a hybrid press. And caveat here, not all hybrids are created equal. Yes, with a hybrid press and caveat here, not all hybrids are created equal.

Speaker 1: 12:11

But for me you put a little skin in the game as an author. The publisher puts a little skin in the game. You don't get an advance, but you get a bigger piece of the pie on the end. So I got bigger royalties with that than I did with traditional. And they have a sales force. They actually get you into brick and mortar, which is different from a lot of other channels. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 12:28

And then small presses are lovely. I call it the boutique experience because you're getting that individual attention. They really care about you, they want to promote you, but they're ebook only. You're not getting an advance and you I'm not sure the royalties are as big. So it's a lovely small experience, but there are cons to that as well. Yeah. And then big traditional. I would say I've been with them because I was with Amazon Publishing and they are kind of becoming one of the bigger ones and I would say the pro is they've got a long marketing tail. They've got great, established teams. You're getting a lot of big distribution, but the larger you go you are the smaller fish in the bigger pond. You're giving away 15% to your literary agent. You are seeing a smaller revenue on the back end because you have to earn out in advance that you're given and, quite honestly, more and more you're not choosing your title, you're not choosing your cover and you're definitely not being sent on book tour unless you're Kristen H Hannah.

Speaker 2: 13:28

Yeah, or like creating your own right. You're still doing that heavy lifting yeah.

Speaker 1: 13:33

So that's just a quick down and dirty thing that comes top of mind. But there really are strong pros and cons to each channel.

Speaker 2: 13:40

Yes, and that's what makes it hard and overwhelming to decide sometimes. And one thing I don't think you mentioned was speed right. So each of these also has different speed to market. So self-publishing can be fairly quick. What about hybrid and the boutique small press?

Speaker 1: 13:57

Okay, so my hybrid has the same plan as traditional. So it takes two years to get on a bookshelf from the time you sign a contract. I would say small presses are quicker. I'm seeing people in small press get to market within 12 to 18 months. And then the big traditional you're two to three years before you hit the shelves. That's after contract is signed Right.

Speaker 2: 14:21

So, yeah, that's one of the big things. It's funny because if I were to rank things I see people care about, number one is creative control, I think for the authors I work with, or I'll say that and marketing like they think either they want to handle the marketing or the traditional publisher will handle it, so that's like top of mind. Then I think they go to money and then I think they go to speed, at least from what I've seen. I think they go to speed, at least from what I've seen. And so it's kind of like if you're in that top bucket and creative control is the number one thing, sometimes it's like that's all you need to know. That's all you need to know to make your decision.

Speaker 2: 14:57

Other times it's speed, that that might be. All you need to know is that I work with a lot of writers who are maybe in their 70s and they're like I don't want to wait three years to get this book out. Writers who are maybe in their 70s and they're like I don't want to wait three years to get this book out, right. So sometimes it's like, like Nicole said in the beginning, know what is, what your main goal is, what you're all about. Let that be your North Star, and it becomes a lot easier.

Speaker 1: 15:19

So true, so true.

Speaker 2: 15:20

Yeah, and the other thing I think writers can think about, which maybe you could talk about a little, is like what does success look like for each of us? Because if we were to ask each of us right, Nicole would have a different answer than I would about what being a successful author looks like. You want to talk about that a little?

Speaker 1: 15:37

Yeah, and I think I really am happy that you asked this question because I think this is an evolving answer. For most writers, you know, success at one stage in your career might look different from success on book four or five. But this was also being mentored by maybe a more seasoned editor that could sort of help shepherd my career along and be part of a larger community of authors and really be proud of the end product. And the reason I'm tying those two together the goals and what success looks like is it's very, very easy to go astray and sort of go for the shiny object right and say, oh shoot. Looking back, did that even meet my goal or did that meet what I thought success looked like? Yeah, and I gave up some of that personally. I went for the shiny and I thought, ooh, this didn't meet what I thought it would meet. And now I don't know what success looks like. I was actually confused mid-career, like what do I even want?

Speaker 2: 16:41

Yeah, and I mean yes, like that part is true. Right, that's happening where you're making your own decisions that have consequences, both good and bad, and then also the landscape is changing. So it's kind of like you're navigating both of these things and I think, like if we could tie this back to one key point that's going to come up over and over, it's know yourself, know what you want, because as those things around you change, if you can listen to your heart, you're going to be, you know, ahead of the game, I think.

Speaker 1: 17:08

Yeah, I totally agree with that.

Speaker 2: 17:11

Yeah, okay, and so I love that you kind of you come at this from your own personal experience and also from working with writers. Are there any like mistakes that come to mind, or like common stumbling blocks or things like that, other than not getting in touch with your goals and not knowing what you want?

Speaker 1: 17:28

Yes, and the number one thing that comes to mind it has to do with writing and it also has to do with publishing is rushing the process. And this is no shade to your 70-year-old author who wants to get to market, because I completely understand that but a mistake that I made and a mistake. I've seen so many people who have that sense of urgency and I almost had a sense of desperation. I've got to write the book, pitch the agent, get the agent, get the book, deal, sign the contract, market the book, sell the book. I mean, it was this rush through and what happens in that is that, A you're obviously not present and enjoying the moment, but B you're skipping over key elements that will help, be that building block of your book or your career, whatever it is. And rushing can really hurt people, I think.

Speaker 2: 18:17

Yeah, and so talk about that a little more. What are the things people might skip over when they're rushing?

Speaker 1: 18:22

Okay. Well, you know this very well. When it comes to actually writing the book is that you actually just gloss right over story structure, right. And then, when it comes to publishing, I would say rushing to agree to just the first agent that offers you representation, or rushing to sign with maybe a partner publisher to do self-publishing without doing due diligence. And I always encourage everyone take a beat, talk to people, talk to authors who have gone that route and ask them how was your experience? Would you mind telling me a couple pros and cons? Talk to the publisher. If you're considering any of the four channels, right, what do you offer? What don't you offer? You know, get really granular with that.

Speaker 1: 19:06

I remember talking to another hybrid that I didn't wind up going with and saying, okay, I write upmarket women's fiction. Can you tell me what other authors you have in your wheelhouse that you're publishing? And the guy paused and said, oh gosh, we don't think about genre, we just say fiction or nonfiction. And I thought, nope, he just wants to take my money. You're like no, thank you. So if I would have rushed and just said, oh, this looks beautiful, I love their book covers, where do I sign on the dotted line, I really would have regretted that.

Speaker 2: 19:35

Yeah, okay. So I want to dig into all of that, but let's start with what you're talking about and go back to this word you said earlier, which is desperation. I think like it sounds like a, you know, a not so fun word, but I think a lot of us feel that sense of desperation and it's like we think we have to hurry and grasp onto whatever's given us, because we're just this lowly author and you know like we just hope someone likes our stuff so much. But what you said earlier, too, about becoming more of an entrepreneur, that's not how we would run a business, right? What do you suggest for people that are struggling to bridge that gap between, like, I feel desperate, I'm just a starving artist, and then someone who needs to be, you know, doing their due diligence and weighing the pros and cons and treating it more like a business?

Speaker 1: 20:20

Right. I would say people have a lot more ability to have control than they're giving themselves credit for. So, first of all, start small right, small steps. What's one small step you can do to further the path of your goal right? And what I mean by that specifically is, like maybe this week I will just reach out to one other author I admire and ask about their experience self-publishing. That's one small step, but it also causes me to slow down and not rush to sign on the dotted line. Right, I'm doing some research in the middle.

Speaker 1: 20:54

And then the other part I would say is you have control. You make choices every single day. You make a choice whether you're going to sit down and edit a few. Control. You make choices every single day. You make a choice whether you're going to sit down and edit a few pages. You make a choice of whether you're going to sit down and do a journal prompt of writing out 10 goals you have for yourself over the next two years. You have choices and the more you realize that, the more you slow down just a touch and the more you realize oh, I have some power here. I have choice.

Speaker 2: 21:20

Yeah, and just like most business partnerships right the agents and the editors they want someone who's in it, who's going to be treating this like a business partnership. And you know, the more I think we can learn to step into that, the better decisions we'll make, the better careers we'll have and things like that. So I love that you're talking about slowing down and kind of shifting the mindset Once you've written the book, like it doesn't mean we have to walk away from the creativity, but we do need to step a little bit into that. I now have this thing that I'm going to get out in the world and to do that I need to become more of an entrepreneur to do that. So I love that. And then I want to take us back to because you said about story structure, people rush through this. So, said, about story structure, people rush through this. So I see this I'm sure you do too all over the map. It could be like someone writes a book and then they're like cool, I'm going to go query agents tomorrow. So they're like in such a hurry. Then I see it where, like, people will spend, let's say, two years on this book and they're editing it and revising it in a silo and they never get feedback and then they go out and query To me.

Speaker 2: 22:21

I would consider that kind of rushing the process too, because you're skipping steps.

Speaker 2: 22:26

I also see people who this happened to me recently, where a writer wanted me to do a developmental edit on their book and then they were like so after this it's going to be perfect, right?

Speaker 2: 22:36

And I'm like no, like there there are so many rounds of revisions and any editor is not going to be able to take your draft and help you make it perfect on that first iteration, because there's so much you're going to learn. So it comes down to like you know our expectations of things and also understanding the process, because I also will see it too. I'm just thinking of all the ways people skip steps, maybe working with a line editor and a copy editor at the same time and you're not allowing for those passes because you're in a rush. All it comes back to is it's detrimental to what you're trying to accomplish, even though it's like yes, we all want things to go faster than they do in all areas of our life, but you're so proud of this book, why would you rush it? Why would you not do what you need to do to get it out there, right so?

Speaker 2: 23:24

there's so many places, people rush.

Speaker 1: 23:27

I totally agree, and I am guilty of this myself. My debut novel man. Did I rush it because I would just wanted to get out there? Yeah, I remember.

Speaker 1: 23:35

Specifically an incident that happened back then is that I had written I can't remember if I'd finished the manuscript or maybe I'd written most of it, and I submitted a very small portion to a contest. These were early days before I started pitching agents, but I thought, oh, I'm ready, I wrote this book. I don't think I had any beta readers, I just wrote it in a silo and I entered a contest and it was the greatest gift to me because I got feedback from the judges and the feedback wasn't great and you know, it was really like, oh, you know, the narration was all over the place or you know something very fixable. And I actually was forced to stop because I thought, sure, I'm going to start queering agents tomorrow. Yeah, it was a gift because it forced me to slow down for just a second and say, oh, I actually need to fix a few things before I start putting it out in the greater world.

Speaker 2: 24:24

Yeah, and I think it's worthwhile for us to all think about. Where does this need to rush come from? And it comes from that sense of desperation. It comes from, I think, fear. Sometimes too, like a lot of times really, it's. If I stop to get feedback, what if they tell me it's fundamentally broken? Or what if I hear that I need more work than I thought I needed to do? Or what if I research something and I learn that it's actually going to be another six months because there's another step? And do we want to be making decisions for something that is so important to us, like our books, out of fear and desperation? And if we slow down and think about that, I would say most of us are like no, we don't yeah.

Speaker 1: 25:05

I would say also you know so many writers, myself included, is we think about becoming an author, we fantasize about it, we daydream for years before we pull the trigger and actually start writing that first manuscript. And so by the time we hit the word, the type, the words, the end, we are so desperate to get that career going and off the ground because we've been thinking about it for years.

Speaker 1: 25:29

So, I think that's where a lot of the rushing comes from is like okay, I've told people I wrote a book and now I have to deliver on that promise, because everyone's asking me and I've told myself I'm going to be an author, so let's go yeah.

Speaker 2: 25:42

And I mean plus, we're excited on some level too, like we just did this big thing of writing a book and we just want to share it and see what happens. So not all the feelings are negative, but it's important to, I think, to identify what is driving me to make the decisions I'm making, because sometimes we may or may not agree with what we're doing. But I want to flip this around now and talk about people sometimes will wait too long also to put their books out in the world. So I wish things in the writing world were like there's an exact timeframe to follow and it's this, but there's not. And I see this on the flip side, where people will go over things or they'll have six developmental edits and they're getting so many different opinions that and they just keep trying to perfect this thing, thinking like if I perfect it, it'll go out in the market and then I will never get a bad review and it'll be great.

Speaker 1: 26:31

Yeah, what would you say to those people that's perfectionism, right? You know, there's the same people who write the first three chapters over and over again before they let themselves write forward, and I would say that that's a real thing. It's very relatable. We want to get it right. It's a very vulnerable and personal thing to put our work out into the world, so why wouldn't we want it to be perfect or close to perfect?

Speaker 1: 26:55

But I think, just as you know I know you and I both talk about this Savannah is just as people sometimes adopt far too many systems to write the book. There's all these different tools and resources and systems and people get frozen. The same exact thing can happen when you're getting feedback and polishing your manuscript. So I would actually say, have two resources for yourself One, a very trusted person who can talk to you about structure, and then two, a very trusted group that can talk to you about the experience of reading the book. And what I mean by that is maybe you get a partial or full developmental edit and then maybe you have a group of trusted beta readers. Those two things I've found have been really effective for writers, and they're not listening to the masses, they're listening to a trusted few.

Speaker 2: 27:42

Yeah, and speaking of, like, what you're in control of, you're as an author, you're very much in control of who you get feedback from. So part of that is a responsibility of saying you know, for me, for example, I would as much as I love my mom, I'm never going to give her my fantasy book. She thinks Harry Potter's scary, so she's not going to like my adult fantasy book. And if I give it to her and she reads it like I need to be ready for her to not like it, you know. So it's like sometimes we just need to own that and say, okay, maybe it means paying a group of paid beta readers, or maybe it means saving up to work with a developmental editor or a coach or whatever to get the right kind of feedback, because feedback is not all created equal.

Speaker 1: 28:25

No, it's totally not. I think that critique groups are good and bad for that reason, because everyone will give you their perspective and that doesn't mean they're a trained editor or a trained critique or beta reader. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 28:38

Yeah, and a lot of times I see feedback that comes from writing groups and things like that, and people mean well, but they'll say things like I lost interest here and it's kind of like okay, cool, but like I don't know what to do about that, you know. Or I really like this and it's like, okay, I'm glad you liked it. Now, how would I ever go about replicating that? No idea, cause I don't know why. So I think it goes back to that entrepreneurial mindset and, as business owners, if we need help, we would go get help right and we would treat it seriously. So I think the same can be said for authors, or should be said for authors.

Speaker 2: 29:12

But I'm curious, because you have four books under your belt. So for the people who are delaying and maybe waiting and they've gone through multiple rounds of beta readers and revisions and all these things and they're scared to pull that published trigger, yeah, was that the same for you in the beginning? And or, like, what is your life like now that you've actually published that first book and written more? Have you grown? Is it easier? You know, talk about that a little, I hope.

Speaker 1: 29:40

I've grown. I think you know. What's so interesting and I'm going to be real honest with you is that I have four books out there, but the book that people always say they love the most is my first one and it's very ironic because it was my most amateur style writing. But I know why people say they loved. It is because there was so much joy and euphoria in writing that book and it showed Later on.

Speaker 1: 30:06

When I got under contract and I had someone looking over my shoulder, some of the joy was sucked out and you can tell in parts of my book at least I can tell. So I would say, first and foremost it's about the joy of the process, of this is the story you came to tell and enjoy it, be in the moment, because that's what it means to be a writer. Yes, you'll have days where it feels horrible and slow, but overall it's the energy you put into it and I know that sounds a little woo-woo, but I've seen that at the end product. So I think your question was have I evolved or have I changed?

Speaker 2: 30:40

Yeah, and just because I would imagine it's very interesting that, first of all, the first book of yours is everyone's favorite, because normally that doesn't always happen, right, yeah, but what I was imagining you were going to say is people love it. Well, you did say it, right, you were more of an amateur writer back then, so it's not perfect, and look at the results it's having. That's kind of where I was thinking you were going to get, because people think they wait and they wait and they wait to publish because they're so scared that it's not going to be perfect.

Speaker 2: 31:11

I read so many imperfect stories that I love. We all do. So, yeah, I think there's something to be said about rushing and something to be said about waiting too long. So, right, right, yeah. So I don't know. It's just so interesting to think about, like, would you agree with this, because I've seen this with other authors that once they publish on that first book, you're going to have hurdles of writing your next, however many books, but it's never as hard to get it out as that first one was.

Speaker 1: 31:48

I've said this on our episode together already that knowledge is power. So every time you put a new story into the world, you know a little more about your reader. You know a little bit more about your sales how did people find me? You know a little bit more about your own author voice and all of that is going to inform your next steps, like your author platform or how you're reaching a really targeted readership. All of that is propelling you forward. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 32:09

And it's so important. It's just like with everything in life right, the first time we show up to ride a bike, we're not going to be that great at it, we're going to fall off, and sometimes I think it's okay. Tell me if you agree. But it's okay to say we're a writer who's writing our first book. I'm okay that it's not perfect. I want to get it out for so many of the good reasons Getting reader feedback, like you said, publishing. Something that's very exciting being able to write my second book. I think sometimes it's okay to let ourself have goals, that our first book doesn't have to be a New York Times bestseller, and I think it's fine. That's great.

Speaker 1: 32:44

Right, yeah, If you think about singers or painters or actors most of them their first gig, so to speak, was not the big blockbuster hit right, it's a body of work that you put out.

Speaker 2: 32:56

Yes, yeah, so that's a fun way to think about it. I've never thought about that before of like singers and other artists. It's so interesting, right? But so, speaking of author platform, I know that you are cooking up something that, by the time this episode goes live, it will also be live, so tell me about that.

Speaker 1: 33:13

Yeah, I'm really excited. I've been doing a collaboration behind the scenes for a while now, because one of the things I love to do is meet writers where they are and see what need is not being filled. Again, serving my younger self of what did I desperately want support with when I was going through it. So, yeah, by the time this episode airs, we will have launched bookworksco and it is a service for authors, fiction writers who are looking to develop their author platform and also to have a plan for pitching literary agents. That's cool. I'm really excited.

Speaker 2: 33:49

That sounds super exciting, Just like for writing. There's a lot of resources out there on the internet. It's really hard to take those resources and kind of put it into a plan and know what to do and when to do it. So it almost kind of sounds like there's going to be some coaching and some hand-holding involved right, which is very needed. So I'm very excited about that. Thank you, and did you want to? Is there anything else you want to share about that?

Speaker 1: 34:13

Yeah, I just would say that you and I both have been in the industry for a while now and we have seen not even in the past five years, I would say even two to three years all of a sudden fiction writers have to have platforms and they have to have readerships, and that was not the case a long time ago. It was just nonfiction, right. So again, this is something. I don't want to freak people out that they have to think about all the things plus writing their book. But wouldn't it be nice if you expanded your offerings and say I do have a platform. I am beginning to learn how to talk to readers before my book is even published.

Speaker 2: 34:48

Yeah, and so this. I want to say two things about this. One is I actually am working with an author. She has an agent, and that agent went out and talked to a bunch of different traditional publishers and someone was like you know, I really want this, but I don't see you on social media. The first time I've seen that happen for one of my clients. But I had heard about it and, like you said, in the past two, two, three years it's gotten more to be more of a thing, and so she's, you know, doing a great job trying to build that. But it's kind of like they want her book. They're just not willing to take it until she has that. So that's a hard place to be in where she's just like. I think there's good things on the horizon. I just need to get good at social media and email now. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 35:33

Yeah, it's wild that it's happened that way. And also just so for your listeners know, having a platform doesn't just mean social media. You know we've got Substack, we've got podcast interviews, we've got all kinds of great blogs, things that can come out, that can also build your readership. So I don't want people to think they have to be dancing on.

Speaker 2: 35:51

TikTok? Yes, you definitely don't and honestly, I always say, like email is the most important. You want to have that place to collect people and then be able to talk to them, but that's the second thing I wanted to ask you is, if I'm a writer out there and I'm like, okay, like I heard you, I don't have to be on social media, like what is the point of a platform? Why are they so interested in me having a platform? Pretend like we're five years old and we don't know what that is for.

Speaker 1: 36:16

What is it for? Okay, so just as all of the things in publishing have changed that we've kind of touched on over the years, so has the fact that publishing houses no longer have the money to market you, and so when you come to an agent or a publisher or self-publishing with even just a tiny bit of readership coming along with you, you've done half the work. You're making it easier for them to say yes to you because you're bringing something important along with you. And plus, I just have to say writers need to learn how to speak to an audience.

Speaker 1: 36:49

Before I wrote books, I wrote blogs. I wrote for lifestyle magazines. I learned how to work with an editor. I learned how to speak to an audience because that voice is important. And so I guess to wrap it all up in a bow is just find one thing, one place where you can talk to an audience. It could be your own sub stack, it could be writing a blog on your small little website that only 10 people see. It doesn't matter. Just start small and start practicing and keep consistent.

Speaker 2: 37:19

Yeah, and at the time this goes air or this, at the time this goes live, you can check out Nicole's resources for helping you do that. But the other thing I think that's for writers out there who might their skin might be crawling a little bit of like. I don't wanna do this. Just think about if, let's say, nicole and I are agents and we're sitting around this table and we're, or we're, a traditional publishing house, whatever. We're sitting around a table and we're down to these two manuscripts that are both really great and they're, you know, both fantasy, let's say, and we're looking at them and we're like we can only pick one. They're going to pick the person that has a platform because, like Nicole said, it's helping. They don't have those resources to allocate marketing dollars and things like that. So your platform is contributing like a business partner should right to the overall sales potential.

Speaker 2: 38:08

So the way I like to think about it because I don't love social media and, as an author, I don't love all the things I need to do to build a platform but it's a way, it's a tool in your toolbox that'll make you more enticing. So think about it that way. It's just something else you're bringing to the table, just like a solid query letter or a solid set of five pages. It's just another thing. Absolutely Well said, yeah. So any last parting words of wisdom before we wrap up here, nicole.

Speaker 1: 38:33

Hopefully today did not overwhelm listeners thinking they have so many hats to wear in this publishing journey. I just want to remind everyone start small, start 15 minutes a day and just say what's the one thing I can focus on and it won't feel that overwhelming.

Speaker 2: 38:50

Yeah, and on that note, something I tell people too is, let's say, we all have days where we're like we should be writing, but we don't feel like it. That's a great day to spend some time working on your platform or, you know, maybe doing your query letter, something that's not as much in that creative part of your brain. If that part's tired, there's always flexibility. So it's kind of learning how your creativity and your energy ebbs and flows, and you'll figure it out.

Speaker 2: 39:14

So you know, yeah, but okay, nicole, tell us where we can find you all around the internet and we will post all the links in the show notes for listeners. Okay, super.

Speaker 1: 39:23

If you want to find me, I'm at NicoleMeyercom. I also have a Steps to Story podcast, and then the brand new company that's going to help writers is called Bookworksco.

Speaker 2: 39:34

All right, awesome. We will put all that in the show notes, and thank you so much for being here, nicole. I'm so excited for the new stuff that you're going to bring to the author community. I think that is so it's going to be. It's so needed. I'll just say that it's so needed. You're going to be wonderful at it, and thank you for being here and sharing your expertise. Thank you, I loved it, as always. We'll have you back someday soon too, I'm sure.

Speaker 2: 39:57

So that's it for today's episode. As always, thank you so much for tuning in and for showing your support. If you want to check out any of the links I mentioned in this episode, you can find them in the show notes listed in the description of each episode inside your podcast player or at savannahgilbocom forward slash podcast. If you're an Apple user, I'd really appreciate it if you took a few seconds to leave a rating and a review. Your ratings and reviews tell Apple that this is a podcast that's worth listening to, and, in turn, your reviews will help this podcast get in front of more fiction writers just like you. And while you're there, go ahead and hit that follow button, because there's going to be another brand new episode next week full of actionable tips, tools and strategies to help you become a better writer. So I'll see you next week and until then, happy writing.