Speaker 1: 0:54

One thing that drives me crazy about writing is that in almost every other art form we separate performance and practice as two separate activities, and in writing we just smush them together. So it's like I'm going to learn how to write while I write something I want to publish. That's like saying I'm going to learn how to play the guitar while playing a concert Like that doesn't make any sense. I wish more writers would stop trying to produce their work in progress and just become really good at the skill of scene writing.

Speaker 2: 1:28

Welcome to the Fiction Writing Made Easy podcast. My name is Savannah Gilbo and I'm here to help you write a story that works. I want to prove to you that writing a novel doesn't have to be overwhelming, so each week, I'll bring you a brand new episode with simple, actionable and step-by-step strategies that you can implement in your writing right away. So, whether you're brand new to writing or more of a seasoned author looking to improve your craft, this podcast is for you. So pick up a pen and let's get started.

Speaker 2: 1:56

In today's episode, I'm sharing a conversation I had with Tim Grahl about his new book that's called the Shithead. Tim is the CEO of StoryGrid, a book launch expert and the author of multiple different books, both fiction and nonfiction, and in this conversation we talk about what it was like to write this book. That Tim says is the best book he's ever written, and I happen to agree, having read his previous fiction. So he talks about what exactly he did to write the best book he's ever written, and in this conversation you'll hear us talk about things like how he brainstormed and planned this novel in about 13 weeks so what went into that process and things like that and then how he actually sat down and wrote the book after that in just about 12 weeks. And what I think you'll really find interesting is what Tim says about how he primarily focused on writing the best scene possible so one scene at a time, the best scene he could possibly write and how this laser focus on writing compelling scenes helped him write a book that works, that doesn't have a lot of fluff and that didn't need too many big edits. At the end of the episode, I couldn't resist asking him about his launch and marketing plans because, like I said, he is the book launch guy and has so much experience with launching and marketing, so I know you will really enjoy that part of the episode as well.

Speaker 2: 3:16

Now, before we dive in, I wanted to read the back cover copy of Tim's new book. Again, it's called the Shithead and it's officially available for purchase as of September 19th 2024. So let me go ahead and read that to you now. Eric Bauer, son, husband, father and small business owner, is slowly losing his grip on reality, drowning in debt and a never-ending to-do list. He finally catches a break To trade the torment of barely scraping by for the riches of Nashville's elite pinnacle club. He only needs to keep doing what he's been doing since college. Lie, playing fast and loose with the truth is the easy part. What's hard for the shithead is figuring out how to build a meaningful life in a meaningless world. So now that you have a little flavor of what the book's about, we can dive right into my conversation with Tim Grahl, the CEO of Storygrid and the author of his most recent novel, the Shithead. Hi, tim, welcome to the Fiction Writing Made Easy podcast. I'm so excited to have you on today.

Speaker 1: 4:15

Yeah, thanks for having me Savannah. I've been looking forward to it.

Speaker 2: 4:18

And I'm excited because usually when we chat, you're the one that's in the interviewer role and I'm the interviewee. So we've flipped the tables and we're going to chat about your new book called the Shithead that is out September 19th. But before we dive into the details, I already gave you the official intro in the beginning, but in your own words who are you? What do you do?

Speaker 1: 4:37

I am the CEO of StoryGrid, where we help writers build the skills, learn how to write and leave a legacy, and on top of that, I'm an author, so I've written six books. My most recent is the Shithead. I've written a memoir, a couple business books and just wanted to be a writer my whole life, and so StoryGrid is my day job, and you know I write on the side.

Speaker 2: 5:04

Awesome. And do we need to clarify that the shithead is not your memoir?

Speaker 1: 5:08

No, mostly not my memoir. My memoir was titled Running Down a Dream.

Speaker 2: 5:14

Yeah, I feel like you're going to get a lot of jokes about is this based on you and is this the memoir? So, just because of the title, but where did the idea for this book come from?

Speaker 1: 5:25

So I did pretty intensive EMDR therapy back in 2020, you know, when everybody was going nuts. And about two years later I had some really kind of wild things happen while I was in there. And a couple of years later I was talking about it with my wife and she's like you need to start writing down what happened, just so you have it, you know, as like to reference later if you want to show the kids one day or something. And so I wrote down one of them and I sent it to Sean, my partner at StoryGrid, the founder of StoryGrid, and he wrote back this is the best thing you've ever written. You know, don't stop whatever you're doing. So I wrote down a few more of those, but it was's the only time it's ever happened to me. So this is one of those things where I'm like I can't tell you how to make this happen.

Speaker 1: 6:23

But I was dropping my kid off at school we're listening to the band 21 Pilots and just as he got out of the car, the song the run and go came on, and every time that song I hear that song.

Speaker 1: 6:39

It makes me cry and so for some reason, I like hit the to play the song over and over repeat, right. So for the next 25 minutes I drove into my office just bawling listening to the song and I felt like this book just downloaded and it was like a way to a story about what happened to me in EMDR. So it was a very rough version of. I really like the way Stephen King talks about you find a fossil and then you do your best to dig it up, right? That's kind of what it felt like, is I found this thing and then it took me a year and a half to dig it up. But yeah, so it was really just. It felt like you know, something opened up the top of my head and just poured the story in and then it was my job to figure out how to write it down.

Speaker 2: 7:28

Yeah, which is so funny because you hear people say that happens sometimes, but you kind of feel like it's never going to happen to you and you probably didn't believe it until it literally happened to you.

Speaker 1: 7:36

Yeah, and if you know me, I am like that is the opposite of what I aspire to. I'm very methodical and planned out and all of those things, and so it was just one of those moments. I've never had one before or since, so I don't know if it'll ever happen again, but that's what it felt like.

Speaker 2: 7:56

Yeah, fingers crossed it happens again. That's pretty cool. So we'll get into kind of like what that year and a half. You said look like writing the book. But I'm so curious because you said the the kind of the dream slash therapy parts of the book are based on what happened in real life. What about the character Eric Like? Is he based on someone you know? Is he based on you? Is he an amalgamation of a bunch of people?

Speaker 1: 8:19

someone you know? Is he based on you? Is he an amalgamation of a bunch of people? So one of the things I think about that's really interesting with fiction is so most of the time, what's going on in life looks very boring, right? So like if you watch people, if you ever like, you're sitting at a stoplight and you look over the person next to them, they're probably just sitting there blank faced, but what's going on in their head is probably something very dramatic to them right they're like worried about paying their bills, or they're thinking about the fight with their spouse, or something like that, and so what fiction allows you to do is to tell a story that is as dramatic as what your life feels like yeah.

Speaker 1: 8:57

So if everything in the book is not true, obviously there's parts I pull from real life. But I've never tried to get a fake cancer appointment or my wife's never laid her hands on me, right, but she definitely wanted to lay her hands on me. So it's like the feelings I think are 100% true and I tried to write a story to evoke the feelings in the reader that I felt in real life.

Speaker 2: 9:25

Right which is interesting because we were talking about this offline that I feel like Eric the character might be a little polarizing because you did such a good job of kind of bringing those feelings and those like thoughts we don't say out loud into Eric's character, Right? So tell me a little bit about how he's been received so far.

Speaker 1: 9:43

So it's been pretty mixed on how he's been received. To be completely honest, most of the women that read the story do not like him and are pretty put off.

Speaker 2: 9:55

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 9:56

At the same time, my friends, both women and men, that have felt the pressure of providing for a family by themselves, trying to run a business by themselves, they really resonate with it. A friend of mine actually just bought 30 copies of it to give to his friends.

Speaker 2: 10:12

Wow, I love that.

Speaker 1: 10:14

Yeah, so it's really interesting too, because people that didn't like the book still finished the book. So that's what a lot of the across the board the most consistent feedback has been. Once I started reading, I couldn't stop.

Speaker 2: 10:28

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 10:29

So I felt like there were people that did not like the book, but I still dragged them all the way to the end. Yeah, that says something.

Speaker 1: 10:38

Yeah, once I realized how stressful I was writing the book, I tried to turn that up to a 10. So I tried to do my best to make the reader uncomfortable, stressed out, frustrated. I've had a couple of people email me some version of like who told you all the mistakes I made and why did you put them in your book. You know, yeah, and it's funny because people, when people get mad and they're like he's such all the mistakes I made and why did you put them in your book. You know, yeah, and it's funny, because people, when people get mad and they're like he's such an idiot. I'm like, well, I did most. You know it is a kind of about me, so you're like you think I'm an idiot, you're like, thank you.

Speaker 1: 11:13

Yes, it's mixed, but I feel like I accomplished what I set out to do.

Speaker 2: 11:18

I think so. If you wanted to make people a little uncomfortable with him, I think you did. And it's funny because so, as a woman, I read it and there were parts where I'm like, okay, eric, I don't need to know that, I don't need to see that, but I was rooting for him still and that's a big deal. And also the things that he does. I might not have done the same thing that he did, but I've made mistakes, right. So we kind of relate to him in that way and it's also kind of he's kind of like a car crash or just you can't stop watching, but then you get to the end and I finished it and I was like, OK, this emotional payoff that I got from watching him struggle, and then I won't spoil what happens in the end, but it was so satisfying. So I thought you know you did a really good job. For those who will stick with Eric and get to the end, you will be rewarded with what happens.

Speaker 1: 12:02

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 12:03

Yeah, but okay. So back up to Sean saying that this was like the best thing you've ever written. How did that feel? Because I know Sean's like one of your big mentors, right?

Speaker 1: 12:13

We started the podcast in 2015. And if you follow the podcast or anything at all, he does not like anything that I write and there were times where he would have me write like 16 drafts of a scene before he would approve it. You know, not for this book, for like other projects and standalone practice scenes and stuff. And so when he liked the first thing, I sent him. Obviously that's a good sign. And then I don't know how much we want to jump into the future, but I'll kind of jump to the end.

Speaker 1: 12:45

When I he didn't look at my plan for the book, he didn't read any of the drafts until I had a draft that I thought was ready, and so at this point I had a year and a half or almost a year and a half into the book before he saw anything. So I was like like you know, because he has thrown out multiple complete drafts of books I've written, you know he's just like shitcanned him and said try again. And so when he read the book, he called me. He read it on a plane, he called me on a Sunday which like never happens that he just calls me out of the blue usually, unless something's wrong and he told me. Not only was it the best thing I'd ever written, it was one of the best things he's ever read oh good so, like, obviously, that moment was very meaningful because he always tells me the truth, right.

Speaker 1: 13:35

So if he didn't like it, he would have been very honest with that, right. So the upside of having somebody that holds me to such a high standard is when they like something I've done, it feels really good and I trust it Right, right. So, yeah, it was one of the best moments of my life.

Speaker 2: 13:54

I bet, yeah, that's so cool, and so I know like, obviously, storygrid talks a lot about genre. They talk a lot about scenes and stuff like that, and we know that. You know you put a lot of effort into that part of your book. But you said to me that you focus a lot on the line by line writing for this particular book. Do you want to talk about that, because I think that's interesting?

Speaker 1: 14:14

So, to back up a little bit, I wrote the Threshing and published that, which was my first novel in 2020, which was fine but not great and it was basically Sean letting me finally publish something, because that's what I really wanted. And then I did it and I'm like, okay, well, that wasn't as satisfying as I thought it would be. And I was like, okay, I'm going to write the sequel to the Threshing. And so I wrote a draft, I sent it to him. He threw it out, was like this is not good. And then, you know, we did some edits on it, like, gave me some a bunch of feedbacks to try again. I wrote again, threw it out again and this is like one of the lore moments in story grid when he sat me down across the table, we were in person and he looked at me and he said, tim, you can't write a sentence and I don't know how to teach you. And so this began a two-year process of him trying to figure out how to teach me how to write line by line and write a great scene. And I wasn't allowed to write anything longer than a scene. So for two years, I didn't work on a work in progress. All I did was work on scene, one scene at a time, and then we we get it good enough, we throw it away and go to the next one and now out of that developed all of the curriculum that we now teach at story grid, which is nice. I actually get jealous of our students Cause I'm like we now know how to teach it.

Speaker 1: 15:43

When Sean and I started on this project, we didn't know how to teach it, he didn't know how to teach it, and so it was a lot of like having me do stuff and then just tell me it wasn't good enough but not know how to like explain it to me. But what came out of that was I'm really good at writing scenes now, so like I can consistently write really good scenes, and I realized when it came like we can go to how I planned out the book. But once I started writing the book, my goal was to just make each scene as good as it possibly can be, and he did do a line by line edit and amped up parts of the book as well, but for the most part it's what I wrote and I think more than anything, people don't understand how important that one skill is is like can you write a scene that is so compelling that people turn the page and read the next scene and, based on everything I see coming across my desk, most people can't do that.

Speaker 2: 16:34

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 16:34

And so that's what we're constantly trying to get. And it's really interesting because I'm a fan of StoryGrid first, like the reason Sean and I started the podcast was because I read the book and loved the book Right. And then now more than ever, it's like I know this shit works and I you can go back and look online and see how I used to write and then read the shithead and just compare right and so. But I think that's so important of like, how do I write a sentence that gets people to read the next sentence, the next sentence and you know, all the way through the scene to the next scene right then, like we've already talked about, even a book that they're not necessarily enjoying, they still read all the way to the end.

Speaker 1: 17:16

That alone feels almost more of an accomplishment.

Speaker 2: 17:19

That's a superpower. Yeah, and you said a key word too it's compelling scenes. So as a coach and an editor, I see a lot of people that can write scenes and they're well-structured, but it's like they're missing that piece that's compelling. And I know we kind of talked about this back when we talked about the Harry Potter stuff was we talked about those three layers of what's happening on the surface, what's happening with the characters, and then what's happening beyond the surface from the author's perspective, and so I know you said that that was something also that went into this book. Is make a right. It was this book.

Speaker 1: 17:51

You were like there were some scenes where I might not have had one of those layers yeah, well, so one of the things we figured out is, if you focus on making it really compelling on the surface we call it the green, we just assigned a green where it's like really interesting to like air quote watch. If you focus on that first, you usually build in all of the other aspects automatically because you know them as the writer, right Like I knew my characters, I knew what I was trying to say, I knew the theme of my book and my job is to just make this as compelling as possible to read and constantly push it too. And I think a lot of writers do this. They tend to pull back a little bit because they're like, oh, this will be outrageous. Or I think a lot of people do this because they're worried they'll push it too far too early in the book or to hold back for later in the book.

Speaker 1: 18:54

And I just decided early on, like I'm just going to make this scene. If people pull out this scene, they'll think it's the best scene they've ever read. And that was like the goal, my goal with every single scene, and it ended up working. I didn't know if it worked, I didn't know if I'd like too many things together, but again, my book has. There's no action in it.

Speaker 2: 19:15

Really there's no like there is a taser.

Speaker 1: 19:17

There is a taser that's like not you know, it's more fun than anything. But, it's like this isn't like a murder mystery or like a thriller or something. It's just the guy like dealing-.

Speaker 2: 19:29

Going to IRS appointments, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 19:32

Yeah, like you're able to build that in Going to IRS appointments, yeah, yeah, yeah, like you're able to build that in. Right At the time I was studying Ann Tyler a lot and I was like Ann Tyler makes super boring shit really interesting to read. So I was spending a lot of time studying her writing too, because I'm like if I can do that, then I can make anything interesting, Because she can make somebody walking down the street interesting.

Speaker 2: 19:54

Yeah, and what I think is cool about what you did too is there's stuff that's like physically happening in the environment. That's surprising and interesting, but that's not always what you rely on. A lot of it is interiority and what Eric expected in a moment or what his plans were, and then those got foiled. So he kind of played with all the different things, which is cool. And then the other thing I noticed was there's not a lot of fluff like at all. There was no parts where I even like reading about him putting together a slide presentation. I was engaged because it was just enough to give me what I needed to know and not like too much stuff I didn't care about. So that's pretty cool.

Speaker 1: 20:30

Yeah, I tried to be pretty ruthless with that. So, like when I edit something, I was just pretty ruthless with the cutting.

Speaker 2: 20:40

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 20:41

But like the one, I have to explain what a super pack is Right.

Speaker 2: 20:45

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 20:46

I tell people that one scene I had probably 20 hours of research into that just so I could write that scene Right. So I had to learn all about super PACs. I read all these like court cases about how we got to where we are. I interviewed a friend of mine who like runs pains for politicians and he knows all the funding rules and everything. So I had to learn all of it and then like cram it into like 800 words to make it interesting. But you needed to know it as a reader. So like that was one of those like again, I spent two years just learning how to write interesting scenes so I can take 20 hours worth of research, cram it into 800 words. It's interesting, it keeps you reading to the end, but it doesn't like fall off into bullshit that you don't need to know as a reader.

Speaker 2: 21:35

Right and I'm curious. I can like almost feel a few listeners thinking like, well, did you have to do all that research before you started writing? Or because you know a lot of people want to fall down the research rabbit hole because they think they need to know everything before they start writing, or is that something that kind of came during or after? How did you do that?

Speaker 1: 21:53

So one of the things we teach at StoryGrid is just-in-time exposition, so like, don't tell a reader something they need to know until right before they need to know it right, so that keeps info dumping out of it, that makes sure you're cutting exposition whenever you can. I kind of take that tact with research, so I do just-in with research, so I do just in time research. So it's like, okay, I'll like write the scene and be like explain a super pack here in brackets, and then I just skip it and keep going. And then I go back and like, all right, I call my friend, I do the research, I come, and then I come back and write what I need for that scene. But if you try to do a bunch of research before you need it, you end up doing a bunch of research you don't actually need.

Speaker 2: 22:36

Right, and then you can tell that comes out in the writing. It's just too heavy and too much so I like that just in time research. I think there are a few people that will probably steal that from you.

Speaker 1: 22:46

Yeah, yeah, I said it here first.

Speaker 2: 22:48

You heard it here first. Ok, so when you were writing it, obviously there was, like you know, you said Sean hadn't seen it for like a year and a half, but you have gotten so much feedback over the years on various things. Can you talk about like your thought process around feedback, because you're really good at hearing it and taking action on it?

Speaker 1: 23:12

And it's hard for a lot of people to even ask for it. Well, in a way, I have a secret weapon because I have Sean. So, overall, all feedback whether it's like on my writing or Facebook video or not, facebook YouTube video or like any feedback my rule is, even in my life, my rule is I only take feedback from people that I know care about me, right? So, like some rando in a YouTube comment, I'm like I don't care what you have to say, even if you're right, I don't even consider it right Because I have no idea who you are. You don't know me, I don't know you, I'm not going to listen to you. So I'm pretty strict about feedback I take. But I have a rule that, like, once I have somebody that I trust in any area of my life, I pretty much do whatever they say. I was a consultant for a long time and one thing that drove me crazy is when people would hire me, pay me a bunch of money and then argue with me Right?

Speaker 2: 24:08

here Like why did?

Speaker 1: 24:08

you hire me? If you know better than me, just go do whatever you want. Like, why did you hire me? If you know better than me, just go do whatever you want, right? So when I'm on the other side, I try to just take whatever people say and just do it. And so with Sean, I decided I trust him and so whenever he would give me feedback, I would do my best to not argue. I have a rule of like the only questions I'm allowed to ask are clarifying questions. But even that I can fall into like asking for clarification, but really I'm arguing.

Speaker 1: 24:42

So I try to be aware of that and I just pretty much do whatever he says, I mean even with, like, the cover of the book. He sent me the cover. He's like what do you think? And I'm like, I don't really like it. He's like, really, I was like, yeah, I feel like the proportions are off and I go. What do you think he goes?

Speaker 1: 25:02

I like it and I was like okay, then let's go with it and I'm like you know more about you have 35 years of experience. I have published three books. You know like we're just going to go with what you said and like over and over and over. I'm like your cover is amazing. So with the feedback with Sean, it's like I just trust him and I just do what he says. And what's great about that is if I do something he says and then I show it to him and it doesn't work, he'll take responsibility. He'd be like ah, I probably shouldn't have told you to do that. Like so the trust goes both ways. But I just trust him implicitly. Do whatever he says, and now I have a nine year track record of all it does is make me better.

Speaker 2: 25:43

Right.

Speaker 1: 25:43

I'll take his mistakes when, like 99.9% of the time, he's right. So I think you need to find somebody, and I do this in my. I'm doing this right now with marketing, like I just hired a marketing consultant and he sent me a four page list of to do's and I just no arguments, I just do everything I'm told.

Speaker 1: 26:03

Yeah, and so I think that is a life hack that has worked well for me and that I continue to use. So the trick is to find somebody that you trust and then just do whatever they say, because, even if you're slightly off, you're going to end up in a better place than you. Just. Obviously, trying to do it yourself isn't working.

Speaker 2: 26:21

Yeah, or you're going to have that light bulb moment, even if the writing sucks or whatever. It is right it's, you're going forward. I also do that with professional stuff and life stuff. It's find someone who's gone before you and then listen to them and or put into practice what they're saying and you'll be so much better off. But I know that's also something that StoryGrid has kind of come back around to focusing on is making sure you get feedback on your writing, because that is the way you're going to grow. And for anyone who's like I'm just thinking of listeners, anyone who's uncomfortable with the idea of getting feedback, maybe we'll send them back to the early StoryGrid podcast so they can hear the very beginning of your journey, because it's kind of cool. Did you have anyone who was editing this while you were writing it, or like what was that like?

Speaker 1: 27:04

Yeah, so I worked with one of our editors through the planning phase. We call it the narrative path. It actually took me longer to plan the book than write the book. It took me 13 weeks to plan the book and 12 weeks to write it.

Speaker 2: 27:20

Wow.

Speaker 1: 27:20

So once we planned it, I had to tell the story to Sean. So I hadn't written anything. I had the plan. We get on a Zoom call and I thought I was going to go over my multi-page plan for my book and he's like just tell me the story as if we're at a coffee shop. So I took about 20 minutes and I just told him the story and he like had one tweak to it and then he's like all right, go write it. And then I just wrote it over 12 weeks.

Speaker 2: 27:47

That's cool, and so it sounds like the planning part was really significant in your ability to write something that was more quality than it would have been without the planning part, right?

Speaker 1: 27:59

Yeah, so I've done, you know I'm sure not all of them, but I've done like a significant amount of the like ways to plot your book before I found StoryGrid and I found them all lacking. They never actually helped all that much. And so with StoryGrid, what I feel like I'm still trying to figure out how to explain what we do, but it feels like a very three-dimensional view of your story. So you figure out your theme, you figure out your genre, you figure out your narrative device, you figure out your characters, but you constantly do. The only word I can think of is recursion. So in programming I have a computer science degree. Recursion is when a function references itself. And so what we do is we come up with a theme and we have a process for that. Then we go to like the genre, we figure out the genre, then we go back to the theme to make sure the genre matches the theme Right, we get deeper and then we go back and check that that makes sense with the theme and the genre. And so it's like we just keep going back over and adjusting it so that it constant, everything fits together, because it starts to feel like you pull one string and it like, knocks three things out of whack you gotta, you gotta go back and fix them, yeah yeah

Speaker 1: 29:21

and so, but by the end what you have is this like very robust view of the book that you understand. I understood what the book was very clearly and then we had like a plotting of the five commandments and that kind of thing. But it had plenty of room in it for me to like figure out stuff as I went, because I knew the book so well and it felt like I had this box of stuff that I just had to get into the story at some point.

Speaker 2: 29:50

Right.

Speaker 1: 29:51

And I'd be in a scene. I'm like, hmm, I wonder what I should do with this scene. I'd like I felt like I was like rummaging through my box oh, this can go in this scene, This'll make the scene better, and I just had to get everything in the box in the story by the end, you know. And so, yeah, that made it really like both having a plan, having Sean agree that the story it worked. This was the first thing I ever wrote that I didn't have like an existential crisis halfway through like, oh my god, the book's not gonna work and this is gonna be like. I knew the story worked as an arc and all I had to do was write the next scene. You know it was the easiest process I've ever gone through to write anything and in my opinion, it's the best thing I've ever written.

Speaker 2: 30:31

So yeah, and that I that I can feel like certain people are probably thinking, gosh, that sounds like a lot of work, it sounds like a lot of going back and checking and you know. But that's kind of how we build a story organically is we have to keep going back like recursions? You said right.

Speaker 1: 30:45

Now.

Speaker 2: 30:46

I learned a new word. And also you said you took 13 weeks to do all that, so it's not like she's doing it in a week. You did it in 13 weeks and then it took you 12 weeks to write, which is what a lot of people want. They want to be able to show up and write. You know, I don't want to say fast, but efficiently and also have fun. And you did.

Speaker 1: 31:04

Yeah, yeah, worth it. Yeah, I think that one thing that drives me crazy about writing is that in almost every other art form, we separate performance and practice as two separate activities, right, and in writing we just smush them together, right. So it's like I'm going to learn how to write while I write something I want to publish. That's like saying I'm going to learn how to play the guitar while playing a concert.

Speaker 2: 31:31

Right.

Speaker 1: 31:32

Like that doesn't make any sense. Yeah, and so I wish more writers would stop trying to produce their work in progress and just become really good at the skill of scene writing.

Speaker 2: 31:44

Right Practice.

Speaker 1: 31:45

Practice Like just practice. People never get up in front of a crowd and play their scales, but they practice their scales Right. So practice shit that you're just going to throw away, it doesn't matter, you're just practicing.

Speaker 2: 31:59

Right.

Speaker 1: 31:59

And I know this innately, because I wrote so many bullshit novels that got thrown away because they were not well written for years and years and years. And then I just stopped for two years, practiced my writing and then, six months after I started writing a book, I had a working draft.

Speaker 2: 32:20

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 32:21

So it's like the pudding. Yeah. So like looking back was that people are like I don't want to waste time. I'm like, you know, what was wasted time was the previous 20 years, right, just trying to write books, you know. And so if I can like save anybody, if I could go back and save myself, I would have like practiced my line by line scene writing for two years when I was in my twenties, instead of, you know, when I was in my late thirties.

Speaker 2: 32:49

Yeah, and I think this could like it might sound like a lot of work or, like you said, some people might think it's a waste of time, but it can actually be really fun Like you can think about. Like I know that everyone's obsessed with the Hermione Granger and Draco Malfoy fan fiction right now, so like you could write a scene of fan fiction for that. You could write a story about your dogs or your kids, or you know it's a scene, so it. It doesn't really matter what it is. It's just the practice and the habits that's going to make you a better writer.

Speaker 1: 33:15

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 33:16

But okay. So I kind of want to take a hard pivot, unless there's anything else you want to talk about writing and editing wise. No, I want to talk about, like I can't not ask the book launch guy what you're doing to launch and market your book. Yeah, and I know there's a lot, so like you don't have to cover a lot, what are you excited about?

Speaker 1: 33:32

So a good friend of mine is a guy named Nathan Berry and he runs a company called ConvertKit, a software company, and I don't know, like seven years ago I switched off of his software to another software and he called me and we were talking about it and I was like Nathan, why do you care? I have like a small email list. You've got thousands and thousands of customers Like what's the big deal? And he said this line with to me that just has really stuck with me. He said I want, I want my friends to like the things that I make.

Speaker 1: 34:07

So Sean likes the book. So that's a win right there. And then I I was really careful to like share the the book with 12 people that I really trusted, right, like we have already talked about, and the feedback was really good and it's with people that would tell me if they didn't like it. And so then the first physical copies I gave away were at a crafting commerce which is Convert Kids Conference, and my kids used to ask me are you famous? And I said I would always tell them. I'm known by dozens of people, right?

Speaker 2: 34:44

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 34:45

I was like, if you get the right hundred people in a room, I'm famous in that room and that's kind of Crafting Commerce, where it's like a bunch of people that know who I am, when I've never once been stopped on the street, right, right, right. So I did a book event there and I had my arts and those were the first physical copies I ever gave away were at that because I was giving them to friends, you know. And so what that did for me was really build my confidence. So it's like, okay, my friends like my book. So even if the general public hate it, the people I care about care about my book. That gave me confidence. So, okay, marketing the book so yeah, I've been a book launch.

Speaker 1: 35:27

I don't know if people on the podcast know who I am, but I've been a book launch consultant for a very long time. I've launched dozens of books to the New York times wall street journal bestseller list. When the war there was a wall street journal bestseller list. Still do it a little bit on the side. So I'm one of the best in the world.

Speaker 1: 35:45

So, yeah, marketing my own book fiction is so hard. So everybody that says like you have to do the basic, same things, but it is harder because there's no like and you'll lose 10 pounds or you'll make more money, right? So, and then this book is particularly hard. I kept having trouble figuring out and actually I want to ask you this question figuring out how to talk about the book, because I'm like it doesn't fit any kind of normal marketing genre that I can think of. And I actually a friend of mine in the industry was like well, what genre is your book Not talking about story grid genres, just genre out in the marketplace. And I was like look, man, I'm going to say the thing that if somebody said it to me I would roll my eyes and be like you're full of shit. I go, there's nothing out there like this.

Speaker 2: 36:33

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 36:34

And actually, before I go on, how would you tell somebody what my book is?

Speaker 2: 36:42

Well, I don't know either, because I was going to ask you a little bit. Like it's almost got this speculative bend to it right With the we're going into therapy sessions that may or may not be real. We're kind of going into subconscious. So that's interesting. I don't know either. Off the top of my head, I almost want to say and this is very weird, but I almost want to say I wish there was like a men's fiction category.

Speaker 1: 37:00

So that's interesting too. So we almost subtitled it a novel for men.

Speaker 2: 37:05

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 37:06

But you know the whole, like the vast majority of readers are women. I didn't want to automatically like kick them out and so this is a problem, is I asked? I've asked Sean that too, and he goes. The problem is your book is a category of one book. He goes nothing like it out there, so you're going to have a hard time explaining it to people. So that makes what is already hard about fiction even harder, cause I can't be like if you like fantasy, you'll love my book, or if you like this book, you'll like mine. So I have a fundamental belief that the best way to get people to, to get your book to spread, is to get people to read it Right. So, like, if you ask me, how do I launch a book and sell a hundred thousand copies, I'm like, unless you got seven figures to spend on it, not going to happen.

Speaker 2: 37:54

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 37:54

How you sell a hundred thousand copies is you get 10,000 people to read a copy and hopefully it's good enough. They tell other people about the book, right, that's really all you can do, even like top bestselling books. Atomic Habits by James Clear didn't sell 10 million copies because he has a 10 million email list. Because he doesn't, he sold a bunch of copies and then those people read it and told other people right, that's how it works. So I decided I'm going to try to give 10,000 copies away to people that I think will read the book, and so far I'm at like 1,600.

Speaker 2: 38:29

Wow.

Speaker 1: 38:29

So I've given away like 200 and something physical copies, just like sending them, like literally I went through. I made a giant spreadsheet of everybody that I've never met in the industry and I'm sending them one copy of it. You know, just writing them a note, sending them a copy. I gave away copies of crafting commerce and then I gave away we're at like almost 1400 copies I gave away on the story grid email list.

Speaker 2: 38:52

Wow.

Speaker 1: 38:53

And I do that in a specific way, where I say if you put your email address in to get this book, you're agreeing to read the book and leave a review by September 19th. People think I'm doing it to get the reviews. I don't really care about the reviews. I want them to have a deadline to read the book. Because people are like, well, I give my book away and nobody reads it. I'm like, well, did you tell them they have to read it? Did you ask them yeah, Like yeah, I give everybody a deadline and what I found is a lot more people follow through. If they set up front, they would do it Right.

Speaker 2: 39:25

Right, it's interesting because I can feel some people like getting a little nervous, like you want me to give away my books for free and like it totally works. We, we did this with the Harry Potter masterwork analysis guide and it was so funny because I'm sure you've seen this when it comes to selling your books, if they like it, people will actually also buy a copy of the book. Yeah, so you know.

Speaker 1: 39:46

Yeah, like there's so much evidence, like I referenced a Neil Gaiman interview from like 13 years ago where he found every time his books got pirated, his sales went up. They actually gave away copies of American Gods and in that time frame sales in bookstores went up 300%. Don Miller for Blue Light Jazz the book was not selling well. They gave away 150,000 copies to Campus Crusade for Christ and then the book took off and sold 1.5 million copies. So it's just like there's so much evidence to it. It's easier to sell a book than to get somebody to read it. Right, like I always reference, we have. We have this book, the San C, which is a 700 and something page fantasy book, and if you don't like fantasy and I said, you either have to read this or give me $30.

Speaker 2: 40:34

Right.

Speaker 1: 40:34

Most of you would give me $30 to not have to read it, right? So I just want people to read it. And then I got to trust that the book is good enough that they'll tell other people about it. And I've seen early signs of that, like my friend buying 30 copies to give away.

Speaker 2: 40:51

And this kind of goes back to what you said earlier, that you well, you said just now it's the thing that works. You've seen at work. So you kind of have to trust the process. And for anyone listening, you know, like Tim said, he's he's one of the best book launchers in the world, right, so he's telling you to do it. It works, even though it's a little scary for some people, I'm sure, but that's pretty cool. I'm excited to see what people think of this and where people land with Eric, our protagonist. Anything else like to wrap things up, or any advice you want to give to people, or anything.

Speaker 1: 41:25

You know, I do this for a living, so I have all kinds of soap boxes I could climb up on. But, like I think, I really believe that most people think they can't actually get better at writing. Like, when push comes to shove, they can learn some tips and they can like learn some things about story, but they can't actually get better. And I'm like one is I know that myself because I was a horrible writer and now I've written something that I think is legitimately good. And then the other side is, like we've seen it in our trainings and our workshops, where, like you know, people get way better if they understand the skills, practice the skills and get expert feedback on their writing and they do deliberate practice, which is not just mindlessly creating a thousand words a day and winning NaNoWriMo or whatever.

Speaker 1: 42:16

It's like writing something, then getting feedback, then writing something, then getting feedback, then trying again, and trying again and trying again. You can get better at the craft. And here's the thing is like I believe the more people that write great books, the better off the world is. I just fundamentally believe that, and everybody listening to this has something worth saying, and the reason you can't say it is not because something's wrong with you or there's something wrong with what you're trying to say. It's you don't have the skills to get it down on the paper the right way, and I know that fundamentally, and so I want people to understand like you have something to say, you have something worth saying. The reason you're listening to this podcast is because that's true. You have to just learn the skills to do it so that when you actually go to say it, people can understand what you're trying to say.

Speaker 2: 43:09

Right, I fully agree with everything you just said. I couldn't have said it better myself, and I especially love the emphasis you've put today on practicing your craft and in order to help writers do that, I know that you have a worksheet for listeners, right.

Speaker 1: 43:24

Yes, I have a 13 point scene writing checklist. It's the checklist we use in our workshops when we're checking people's scenes and you can go to storygridcom slash checklist and you can download that and you'll see. You'll see the checklist, you'll see how we use it and I have like a walkthrough of how we use it to analyze scenes and give feedback on scenes awesome.

Speaker 2: 43:44

Well, we will put that link in the show notes, will also link to your new book and then everyone can go grab their copy. But thank you so much for coming on the show and for sharing all your experience. I think it's so fun. You know, I've seen what you've written the years and it's just been so fun to see how much you've grown as a writer and, yeah, it's just really cool. So thank you again for being here.

Speaker 1: 44:04

Yeah, thanks, savannah, I appreciate it.

Speaker 2: 44:08

So that's it for today's episode. As always, thank you so much for tuning in and for showing your support. If you want to check out any of the links I mentioned in this episode, you can find them in the show notes listed in the description of each episode inside your podcast player or at savannahgilbocom forward slash podcast. If you're an Apple user, I'd really appreciate it if you took a few seconds to leave a rating and a review. Your ratings and reviews tell Apple that this is a podcast that's worth listening to and, in turn, your reviews will help this podcast get in front of more fiction writers just like you. And while you're there, go ahead and hit that follow button, because there's going to be another brand new episode next week, full of actionable tips, tools and strategies to help you become a better writer. So I'll see you next week and until then, happy writing.