Speaker 1: 0:43

Usually the advice is if there's series potential, all they care about is book one, so you don't need to mention it's a duology. You could say there's potential for a follow-up or whatever, but you could also just take that out. Okay, because technically you're going to answer the question of the story and we want it to feel like it's complete, and the reason why is that sometimes it might work and they might want more books, or it might not work. They're not going to buy it based on the fact that it's a duology and they don't care. Welcome to the Fiction Writing Made Easy podcast.

Speaker 1: 1:19

My name is Savannah Gilbo and I'm here to help you write a story that works. I want to prove to you that writing a novel doesn't have to be overwhelming. So each week I'll bring you a brand new episode with simple, actionable and step-by-step strategies that you can implement in your writing right away. So whether you're brand new to writing or more of a seasoned author looking to improve your craft, this podcast is for you. So pick up a pen and let's get started. In today's episode, I have a fun treat for you. I'm basically going to let you be a fly on the wall for a coaching call with my friend, jack, who you might know as one of the hosts of the Book Talk for Book Talk podcast. Jack and I originally met because I am obsessed with their podcast. Her partner and podcast name is Amy. So Jack and Amy host the Book Talk for Book Talk podcast and I emailed them and I basically said I will come on your show to talk about anything book related. I just want to hang out with you and Amy and nerd out on all things romantic, because that's primarily what they cover and do deep dives into, but they also do other genres as well. And anyway, we did end up recording an episode for their podcast and now we are back together to record another one.

Speaker 1: 2:35

This one is a little different than the previous episodes we recorded together because Jack and I are having a conversation about her work in progress and, to catch you up, jack has been querying her story a little bit, but she hasn't had any bites or requests from agents just yet. So we started talking about her book offline when we recorded that first episode together and I said you know, I think your book has a genre identity crisis. It kind of wants to be women's fiction but it kind of wants to be romance. Because of that, I suggested that she pick Elaine because it was most likely harming her chance at getting a request from agents. So that's a lot of what we talk about today.

Speaker 1: 3:16

I'm helping Jack sort through her thoughts to figure out what she wants to do about her book. We talk about genre, we talk about character arcs and some kind of important things she needs to think about. Because she pitched this as part of a duology and spoiler alert, by the end of the episode she decided to merge her two books into one book. So you'll hear us talk about that and kind of how she got to that conclusion in the episode. So, with all of that being said, let's go ahead and dive right into our conversation. Okay, so, jack, I gave you an introduction already, but can you let my listeners know, just like, who you are, what you do, what you write and things like that?

Speaker 2: 3:56

I am Jack. I am one half of a podcast called Book Talk for Book Talk, where typically we do a literary analysis on books, where we either go super in depth on one book or we kind of do more high level on one book. And I have a bachelor's in creative writing, a master's in comparative literature, and I write what I hope and want to be romance We'll see, I don't know but I also love everything from fantasy and I just I love it all. I like all this stuff. I am a book nerd. Yeah, I read 117 books last year and I think I'm at like 61 this year.

Speaker 1: 4:37

That's amazing. That's more than I read and I thought I read a lot.

Speaker 2: 4:41

I have to like. I told myself not to do more than a hundred, but I think we're going to go past it. You recommended some books that I'm going to have to tackle too.

Speaker 1: 4:52

Yeah, I'm just making your problem worse. So, jack, we have a lot to talk about today and I'm really excited to kind of dig in and just do some troubleshooting and brainstorming and things like that. This is something that I do with writers all the time, so I'm very excited to help you figure out what's working, what's not working and what we can change.

Speaker 2: 5:08

Well, last time you broke my brain, Because you were the one who was like this is women's fiction and I was like gosh, who is it? And so I went back and rewrote a lot of things in there and it makes a lot more sense. I had a lot more fun writing it because I wasn't trying to be something Like I thought it had to be a rom-com. So I was trying to hit those rom-com beats, yeah. And then I was like, no, I get to be as depressing as I want there you go your aim in life right?

Speaker 1: 5:38

Yeah, yeah, I do sad very well. Yeah, there we go. Well, I have a question for you. So I sent you feedback yesterday. You sent me your pages, I sent you notes. What did it feel like getting feedback? Was it your first time Like, talk to me about that? So in.

Speaker 2: 5:53

Like back in my bachelor's I did creative writing right and you have a short story and in that short story you know that's when you get all the feedback. What was hard with that is that, like it's a short story, you don't have book no-transcript. I'm like I know in the recesses of my brain, you know like we do a freaking literary analysis, but you know we're over here talking about like the flowers represent their past and all these lovely things and I'm just like, oh my God, and that first chapter really is critical for the whole book and yeah, it was great.

Speaker 2: 6:56

Your notes are fantastic. Everything made sense, every single thing made sense, and I can already see the elevation of it and I just walked away, being like Jack.

Speaker 1: 7:05

You know better than us, you know Well just to make you feel better too. So there's a lot of things I want to say, but as someone who is an editor, when I write fiction I need someone to point out the things that I pointed out for you. So, I can't do that for myself, okay. So to expect yourself to do that, I think might be a little too high of expectations.

Speaker 2: 7:23

All right, that's good.

Speaker 1: 7:24

Yeah, so very normal. And then the other thing, too is like, when I read your pages, the quality of them were really good. So there's drafts that I read that you know they're messy first drafts or they're like still trying to figure out what they are. I feel like yours is beyond that now. So actually it's a good thing, but there's still things we can do to improve it. Yeah, I think this is this kind of points to like why it's important to choose who we get feedback from, because there's a lot of writers that they'll get the drafts to the state you have yours in and they'll be like I can't believe. I've gone through like three different writing groups and critique partners and no one ever pointed these things out. Yeah, and it's like okay, but this is my job to do that Right, like I've. I've had training, I've had all this stuff. So it just kind of speaks to the. You know, be careful who you ask feedback from. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 8:11

Yeah, I mean it makes sense. I haven't taken this to a group or anything. Like my friend has been helping me with everything and she's been great, but like there are just things that I like the one in my, like one of your notes that like still resonates, that I like went to bed thinking and it was like the first thought of, like I thought of this morning was it's page four and this is your inciting and inciting inciting incident and you're like maybe we should bring this up and I was like you're right, you're right, it's.

Speaker 1: 8:42

But I mean that's like literally, you know you're, you're the professional, so yeah, you know that well, and just for people who are listening, that don't know what an inciting incident is, that's like the first little blip of conflict and we can get into this more later. But because it's on page four, right, that's coming a little late. So we always want our opening pages. Like Jack said earlier, the first chapter is super important. Well, your first page and your second page are like way, way important, so we want that exciting stuff to be happening as soon as we possibly can. So that was one of my notes, like, hey, this is on page four, you know, and we're going to get into it more later. But if it's okay with you, jack, I wanted to take you through, like, how I looked at your pages. Yes, please, because I think this will show you kind of where my thought process is and then you can troubleshoot your own pages. Okay, yes, okay, so can I share my screen with you? Yeah?

Speaker 2: 9:30

I would love it and if anyone wants to know what we're looking at, stay tuned for the YouTube episode of this so you can see everything. There you go. I have to say this is one of the single most painful. Writing this out was I don't want to say soul-sucking, I don't want to be dramatic, butucking. I don't want to be dramatic, but I also don't want to not be dramatic.

Speaker 1: 9:54

It was a doozy Right. It's hard for everybody. Think about why it's hard too. You're trying to summarize 80,000 words at least, usually more, a little more into something that's one to two pages long and entice an agent. Make sure you're hitting all the things you need to hit in a query letter. So it's not easy. So for listeners who maybe don't know what a query letter is, this is like Jack's done with her book and she's saying okay, I'm going to take my book out in the world, I'm going to try to connect with a literary agent who let's say, like I find one who likes my book, then they're going to help me, take it to a publishing house and hopefully get my book published with one of those houses. So that's the goal of what this query letter is, and what she had to do was basically summarize. So summarize her story, but also like, introduce her story to the agents and then at the end she talks about like who is Jack and what are her? You?

Speaker 2: 10:43

know what's her what's her past? Like and things like that. And I heard, like you know, you have to like kind of make it show the personality you should. You know, even if it's like suddenly I'm like I don't have a personality, I don't know my characters have none. I can't show this like you want me to summarize and be interesting.

Speaker 1: 11:01

Yeah, it's really hard. So again, you're not alone thinking it's hard and struggling. Everybody does. So what I first started with was this and I said okay, I only know what you told me the other time we recorded together, forgot a lot of it, so that was good actually that's good stuff, yeah.

Speaker 1: 11:16

Yeah, because I kind of wanted to come with a blank slate. So I said, okay, if I'm an agent, what am I looking for, right? The first thing I want to know is, like, why did this person query me? And I know this is a work in progress, so like that would come kind of before this first paragraph. It's like you know, agent, I chose you for I'm querying you today because X, y, z I saw on Twitter you want stories like mine, whatever. So we want to know, like, why is this person querying me?

Speaker 1: 11:41

What genre your story falls into? What's the word count? And you know they look at that because is it complete? Is it within the range I work with? Things like that. So that'll all go kind of in your paragraph before your summary, and then also your comp titles, which you have down below, which we can talk about in a second. And the reason why the agent needs this opening paragraph that you're going to add is they want to know do I even work in this genre? If your story is 150,000 words, I'm probably going to automatically reject you because that's way way too long, for you know commercial stories these days If they don't resonate with your comp titles. So story this for readers or listeners who don't know what those are.

Speaker 1: 12:23

There are titles like Jack's book that are already in the market. So agents can kind of say, like, where does this sit on the shelf? How can I kind of make marketing plans for this? They might not resonate or they might really resonate with your comp titles and they're like okay, this is for me or it's not. So they're already thinking that way in the first paragraph, and so this is why these letters are so hard and so important, right, because we want them to say, okay, sounds good so far.

Speaker 1: 12:47

Let me move to the next paragraph, which is your story summary. So then from here we want to know, like okay, the agent's thinking is this, like the hook of the story compelling? Do I want to know more about it? Does the story appear to work based on this summary? Does it appear complete based on this summary? Right, so we can go through Jack's summary in a second. And then at the very end the agent's looking for okay, you know Jack, at the bottom of her query she put that she hosts book talk for book talk, and you know she does all these things. And so they're looking at that paragraph, saying does this person communicate with potential readers already, because that's going to help with marketing and things like that. And then you know, at the very, very end they're thinking do I want to read the pages?

Speaker 2: 13:34

And if it's a no, they're not going to read your pages. It's already going to be a rejection. Yeah, so no pressure. And then right, and then you asked me specifically hey, like send me like the first five, and I said I will give you eight. So, yeah, like I can, even when I've seen some of these like agents, they ask for like first three, first five, if that Right.

Speaker 1: 13:53

Yeah, because they want to see if you, you know, know what you're supposed to be doing and you're getting that hook or that exciting thing in the first couple pages. So if we went out with the way that your pages are, jack, we don't have that thing till page four. So if they were getting to that kind of first blip of conflict on page four and they only asked for page three, it would be a rejection right, no matter how pretty your writing is or like how cool the summary sounded or things like that. Yeah, remind me, have you queried this before?

Speaker 2: 14:23

I tested it to only, luckily, just five agents Like I. Just I dipped my toe and I said this is horrible. And then, fortunately, I think, I spoke to you the next day, okay, so I held off. I was like, okay, that's fine. Um, kind of good timing. It was like freakishly good timing. It was uh, everything worked out perfectly. And you know, I have had the rejections from those and I wanted to be like, no, no, like I actually was panicking, because I was like no, no, it was a rom-com before.

Speaker 1: 14:54

Now, it's not so like yeah, that you don't want to see this yeah, which is, you know, funny, because now I think we've identified some reasons why. Maybe it was, yeah, getting rejected. So you know, the reason I wanted to start with the query letter is just because Jack's gotten five rejections doesn't mean her story sucks. It is just like they're probably rejecting based on the query letter or based on those opening pages. It says nothing about the quality of the rest of your story. So I think that's important to remember because, you know, sometimes I work with writers and same situation happens. They get five, 10, 15 rejections. We fix the query, we fix the opening pages and it's like then they start finding matches. So other times there are, you know, we need to fix the query and the opening pages and the story. So you know, it just depends.

Speaker 1: 15:42

Fortunately, I was more of like relieved when I got those, because I was like in pure panic mode at that point where I was like no, let me fix this which is really interesting too, because I feel like when you were trying to query as a rom-com, you had like internal resistance, yeah, and it's kind of like we need to listen to those gut feelings, even if you don't know the answer to why you're having it.

Speaker 2: 16:04

I thought it was poisoning. It was a was a real good.

Speaker 1: 16:06

Yeah, which like literally then happened, but okay. So with kind of that mindset, we can then look at your query and say, okay, knowing that an agent needs to like really feel like every paragraph needs to check a box for them. And so we can read through this and like one of the first things I saw was okay, we have in your first paragraph it's about Olivia, and then we go to the love interest, who's Liam, and so when I read that I'm like, okay, this reads like a romance query. Yeah, because usually in a romance there's dual point of view and it's like, you know, woman or whoever protagonist one meets protagonist two, and then the third paragraph is like their conflict. But if this is truly a women's fiction story, it should read from Olivia's perspective.

Speaker 2: 16:52

So the question there is that this is dual point of view. So we do get Liam's perspective, but like he's a main character, but not as main as Olivia.

Speaker 1: 17:02

Right, which you know, for some agents that could be a problem or it could be fine, I still, because you know, usually in a women's fiction it's about the woman, yeah Right. So I think let's put that on pause for a second, or maybe we don't put it on pause, because that is one of the things I wanted to ask you. I feel like part of your query in your draft might still have that identity crisis a little bit Like are we romance or are we women's fiction, that identity crisis a little bit Like? Are we romance or are we women's?

Speaker 2: 17:29

fiction. I feel like that Taco Bell commercial. That's like the little kid, that's like why not both? Like, why not both? You know, because I do like the romance of it. But the reason why this one was like you know, some of my friends were bringing it up as an issue and I think this was one of the first things that like sparked it for you, that you flagged it also is that it's a duology, so it's like book one, book two, and the first book does not end with them together, right, and it talks a lot about, like her body image issues, some of her mental health, like you know, facing rejection and all this stuff. And you know he's important to the story and I think, like getting his perspective is important to the story because you know he's not like some kind of like douchebag tool, you know right and it does, and it is like about it's about her, but it's also about their friendship and their romance.

Speaker 1: 18:19

So right struggle yeah, and so it can be both in theory. But if I'm an agent, I want to know where I'm going to place this, right? So if we said it's romance, let's just play with this angle for a second, then we could structure this with his arc of change, and then we'd face the problem of, well, they're not coming together at the end. So then it's like does not compute into romance, right? If we're going the women's fiction angle, it's like, okay, why do I have his? You know.

Speaker 2: 18:53

Point of view.

Speaker 1: 18:53

Point of view in the query. It can maybe exist in the story that's like a problem for another day but at least in the query it's like. You know, if this is about her, we need to have him be a piece of her story, but not like equal footing, if that makes sense. So what I would do because there's little notes in here, but that was like one of the first things that slagged me is I'm like this reads like a romance, not that it can't have romance pieces. So what I would do is I would restructure this and I would say like here's Olivia, she's our protagonist, because I know she goes to London. We get that near the end of your first chapter. And then one of my big questions here that'll help us fill in the blanks is like what is she actually doing? Because there's a part. Let's see now Olivia's dreams are finally coming true. Everything she worked for is within reach. So like is are things coming true or is she like actively doing them?

Speaker 2: 19:43

So it is a little bit of a both situation where she the goal is for her to go get her master's and then apply to this internship. The internship process, like just the application for the internship takes months and that's like the first book, where it's like, again, I'm like my book, I'm going to make this internship as unrealistic as possible. But yeah, so it's like the internship application process is a really long time and that's like the first book and it is very much a like if she gets this internship then and then you know, at the end of the internship they select someone to be an employee and if they're international then they'll still cut, they'll cover their visa. So it's kind of like this is the route to move, to stay and to be with this publishing agency.

Speaker 1: 20:36

Okay. So when she's pursuing the internship, what is she doing? Is she working?

Speaker 2: 20:41

So she's working on her master's and then the pursuit of internship. I have it split into like three interview process. So, like initially the, this isn split into like three interview process. So, like initially the this isn't even like the first. Process is just like applying live with a, with an essay, and then she gets accepted to the as a candidate and then there's interview one, interview two and then the last one is like an essay, almost like interview three type of thing, and that's when, at the very very end, when everything else is kind of like falling apart, that's when she gets accepted and that's also kind of where she's like these boys be stupid, I'm over it yeah, okay, so that's important to know and I think it sounds like a good thing to fill in your plot, which I remember saying to you last time.

Speaker 1: 21:24

your plot sounds like it makes sense to me. Yeah, so she's going, and let me like poke holes in this. Does she have to go to London to do this?

Speaker 2: 21:33

stuff. Yes, that's where the internship is Okay, so she can't do it virtually yeah why not? Because it's a.

Speaker 1: 21:41

It's a uk publishing company and you'd be interning in their office that's in london but okay, so technically she couldn't even do that until the end of the book, though, right the, the application process, or the the internship.

Speaker 2: 21:56

The internship is the actual internship is going to be for book two. Book one is the interview process, like she's she's applied now it's like through the interviews, and those are in-person interviews okay, so she, she, there's.

Speaker 1: 22:09

No, I'm just want to make sure we yeah no, no, poke away.

Speaker 2: 22:11

You don't poke holes, readers will poke.

Speaker 1: 22:13

Yeah, we poke, poke, poke. So okay, so she cannot do it virtually, so she? The goal in book one I'm just like trying to frame this goal is to move to lond, go through this interview process and by the end she will find out is she going to be in this internship or not. Correct, yeah, yeah, okay. So and then what else? Like if you had other conflicts underneath that. So, while she's applying for the internship, we have Liam who causes some problems for whatever reason. What else is going on?

Speaker 2: 22:42

She at one point gets with this other guy I think roughly midway through the book, and he kind of does a number on her and that essentially just kind of makes her spiral in a way where she's behaving Leading up to it she's drinking more, she's going out more and she out more, and she's kind of like facing more issues of like well, maybe I'm not as confident as I thought I was like why am I homesick?

Speaker 2: 23:11

Why is this like gorgeous, hot neighbor that I hate but I'm friends with that? Like I feel like suddenly I don't feel like I'm worthy. Like all these issues that she kind of like didn't deal with start coming up and then a guy does a doozy on her and then she just like kind of spirals out from there trying to grapple with herself. But as she's spiraling she's like realizing like she does really have feelings for Liam. So she's trying to get over one while still having feelings for the other. And then at the end she's like all you one while still having feelings for the other, and then at the end she's like all you boys suck perfect.

Speaker 1: 23:48

Okay, I'm so glad I asked you that because that gives me insight into how she's gonna be challenged by the plot and how she's gonna change. Because you know, in the beginning you have a little flavor of this in your opening pages where it's like she's going to london no matter what she has to leave friends, leave her family, whatever we could potentially amp up the, you know she's confident, she knows she's going to make it on her own piece, just because that's what falters. So just something to think about. So one thing to think about.

Speaker 2: 24:20

After all of that you just said we don't really get a ton of flavor of that in the query?

Speaker 1: 24:22

No, we do not, not at all. Yeah, which is, like you know, a problem but also kind of fun, because now we can reframe it. Take Liam's point of view out, and we can start it by saying, like you know, some of your opening here is really good. Like, so this is Olivia. She moves to London, she's feeling confident, her dreams are within reach. Like all she has to do is three interviews, yeah, and the internship she's been wanting is hers. Like, show us that she's confident, you know, and then we can use the boys as they get in the way. So, like you know, you could even say something like determined to focus only on work and, you know, being a mock, because is she going to get citizenship or anything?

Speaker 2: 25:03

At the very end of, or no, so I'm gonna spoil book two, uh sorry, no, it's all right. I mean at this point it's like so long by the time like the second book hopefully gets published it'll forget, slash like who knows what changes. Yeah, but as of right now, one of the big things in book two is that she doesn't get the internship and has to go home, and at that point her and Liam are together and that's like part of the breakup.

Speaker 1: 25:32

Okay. So you could say something like you know, determined to be the model implant from America and get this job, whatever, or this internship. Basically, she has no free time to focus on anything, especially boys or whatever. And then we say like, but she has this really cute neighbor, and then this other guy, like introduce him somehow. We don't need to get into Liam's perspective because from the big picture, he's a complication to her plot. Yeah, yeah, and just in the query we're just talking about that.

Speaker 1: 26:05

We can keep this perspective in the draft for now. So then we can say, like you know, as cause you have this part here, like they become friends and they can't deny their attraction, things like that. So we want to use that as something that kind of pulls her off that main thread. So, like you know, she's unable to do this and like, how does that then affect her applying for the internship? What's like her all is lost moment. The lowest point for her in terms of the internship, Like it all needs to be in terms of the internship, not in terms of her relationship. I think it's women's fiction.

Speaker 2: 26:35

Yeah, you bring good points, so the it's cool. I kind of want it to be back and forth, of like when she's feeling low is when she succeeds in the internship, she gets advanced right, or times when she's feeling super confident. I kind of want it to be a dynamic between these two things. Oh, also important for the internship In true Olivia type A fashion, she a fashion. She does like all this research on what each piece is, and there's a new person in charge of the internship program. So therefore, every single thing is nothing like she was prepared for.

Speaker 1: 27:14

That's awesome. Okay, so that needs to go in there too. Like cause you're going to set her up in the first paragraph is like she's confident, she's done all the research, she just needs to move here, be the model citizen, do all the things, check off the boxes. Then she meets, you know, or I would start. Then she learns someone new, has taken over and nothing is what she expected. Whatever she meets her, you know, hot neighbor, there's other guy like I would just start kind of layering in the things and then you can say, like you know, just when she thinks she's, she has it all. The guy, the you know the internship in the bank. Like what is that? All is lost moment. And then how does that lead to a question of exactly what you're saying? So, like, is she gonna choose one or the other or is she gonna sell her soul for the?

Speaker 2: 28:03

devil or whatever, the all is lost moment. That's like almost like climax for me in here. Is that okay, like, or it depends? So there's like various levels of all is lost if that makes sense like she's so all again.

Speaker 2: 28:21

Spoiler away here people.

Speaker 2: 28:23

Uh, so the the devastating event for her is that she's very not nice, she's inexperienced, right, she's never like I make that kind of clear in the first chapter like she just doesn't have the romantic experience that you know others may or may not have at the time.

Speaker 2: 28:39

And the the second interest like you know, not liam, but the second interest they been dating. She finally like hypes herself up, they have sex and he immediately kicks her out of the house, out of his place, and she's like can't get home, like the tubes are closing, it's she's scared, it's a dangerous situation for her. And that's a moment where she's like I never felt worthless, but now I do. Like that was like a oh, now I feel worthless, like type of thing. And so moment where she's like I never felt worthless, but now I do, like that was like a oh, now I feel worthless, like type of thing. And so from there there's like moments of descent from that and then all to culminate to this event where she tries to like kind of almost get him back and then is like this is a huge mistake, I shouldn't have even done this.

Speaker 1: 29:23

Okay. So I think it's interesting because you're saying you're talking about the guy a lot, right? So this we're still in romance territory, which, at any point, feel free to stop me and be like you know what. Maybe we are writing a romance because that's okay too well, I do.

Speaker 2: 29:36

that's the thing, because it doesn't end with them together again. I thought it was a romance. I enjoy that. I enjoy the fact that it's not always happy. I read amazing and incredible books. I read Tessa Bailey, I read all these fantastic authors and it's like that's awesome.

Speaker 1: 30:00

But when I?

Speaker 2: 30:00

write, I just kind of make it more complex. We all do, but I love romance too, make it more complex and I'm like, why does we all do? But I love romance too, you know. And then it's like, has to be about.

Speaker 1: 30:07

I also can't write a romance without a woman experiencing things and going through her own issues, so so identity crisis the thing with romance, too, is like sometimes we all think of romance and we think of hallmark, but there's like shades of romance, so we can make this a romance story. And I think this is like to me, this is the root of all your struggles is like what is it Right? So if it's a women's fiction, you're going to have to make some changes. If it's a romance, you're going to have to make some changes. Yeah, so I think like A. How do you feel about that? Like, for example, my brain kind of triggered on we don't know whether she gets the internship or not in this book and I'm like, oh, should we know? So she does get the internship.

Speaker 2: 30:49

So she does get the internship in book two. Yeah, exactly she. Okay, so she gets the internship. But in book two, that's when they find out if she was selected as an employee. Oh, I see, okay.

Speaker 1: 30:59

Okay, so that's good. And so then to me I'm like that's the climax. Then, if book one is like finding out she got it, and then it's like how do you feel now that you got it? Is it everything you thought it was going to be, you know? So that's fine, but that still means we're probably going to need to make some changes, you know, and, for example, how would you feel if, like, you got down the road and an agent said to you this is a women's fiction story? I think we should take out Liam's perspective, like how would you feel?

Speaker 2: 31:25

It'd be so sad, I mean like I do anything to get published. Okay, I don't know, I guess I would, but I feel like if I do, he comes off as a lot more confusing, because I think he's a pretty interesting character too.

Speaker 1: 31:46

Yeah, sometimes that's good though, because I'm thinking of, like some of Colleen Hoover's books. Right, it's like we don't understand why the guy's moody, we don't understand why he shut down to love whatever, and that's part of what pulls us forward in the story. Yes, so sometimes it's not a bad thing. I'm just feeling you out. I'm like what would be a deal breaker for you.

Speaker 2: 32:04

This is great. I mean again, I don't know, yeah, Well the other thing.

Speaker 1: 32:09

I saw this happen to a writer I'm working with they. She had a very similar story to yours and she went through. She has an agent now and the agent was like you know what? I took this to an editor at a big publishing house and they said we would totally take this if you basically turn down the love a little bit, because she had literally such a similar situation. It was mainly about the love and there was a work component and they said we just want you to turn up the work a little bit and turn down the love a little bit. So, people, but would that be a deal breaker for you?

Speaker 2: 32:41

I mean, if I had a major publishing company, again I dance. They'd say dance for me and I'd say which kind, what genre?

Speaker 1: 32:48

Yeah, that's how this other writer is too, and I think that's totally fine to be that way, it's just kind of knowing what are you unwilling to do?

Speaker 2: 32:56

Yeah, that's fair, I guess. Okay, so things that I would be unwilling to do is to like, olivia's journey is like the most important thing for me. I think that her journey with career and the men is integral, is important to this whole thing because, you know, I think that it's a lot of times it's like kind of mixed bag, you know, like I think women can feel confident in some places and not confident in either, and I love the, I like the discrepancy between the two.

Speaker 1: 33:26

Okay, and so talk to me about the climax. So we know she's going to get the internship, we know there's going to be feelings around that one way or the other. At that point, what's going on with the guys? So at this point.

Speaker 2: 33:37

She kind of orchestrates this moment where she knows where guy two is going to be.

Speaker 2: 33:43

His name's yannis, but I feel like that's yannis, yeah, he's okay, he's greek, so she knows where yannis is going to be and she's just like I need closure, like I just need to see him, I just need some kind of closure. And she doesn't really tell anyone but like she knows that he's going to be at this restaurant so she gets all dolled up. At this point there's this like one woman who is, uh, gianna, who's like the like fake friend, one of the villains of the story. So olivia's already kind of accepted personally that like she has feelings for liam. She just needs to have this closure before she can like really move forward with liam.

Speaker 2: 34:16

And circumstances happen. Of course liam shows up. There's like a party. She gets invited to yannis is there, liam's there, gianna's there and she gets invited to Giannis is there, liam's there, gianna's there and she goes off to go just settle things like with Giannis and she hears what she needs to hear. But she's also like I don't need this, like this was stupid, I don't need it. And then when she goes out to the living room, liam and Gianna are hooking up on the couch because he's like thought that she was off and he's drunk and you know all this stuff.

Speaker 2: 34:44

So things just kind of like erupt from there and she actually she gets food poisoning. Oh my god, that's really funny, you manifested it. But like you know. So then there's like kind of the aftermath, right, and then she just kind of has a lot of reflection of like I let for the last however many months these guys dictate my actions, my, or like I reacted this way because of these guys, type thing. And then she hears that she gets the internship and she's just like you know what, like man ain't shit, type thing, like it's just kind of like I'm gonna do my thing. You know, li, we're still friends, like nothing happens for them, they don't even kiss. In this book it's a lot of tense moments and she just and meanwhile he is just kind of like reeling with, like you know, now she's off and dating and doing her own thing and is getting ready for this internship, and he's just kind of like shit, what did I do? Right, I blew it.

Speaker 1: 35:40

Yeah, right, I blew it. Okay, I like that you said she finds out after about the internship, because that was going to be. My next question is like which one comes first? Because that's going to help us say what kind of story it is. So, okay, so it feels like I like that we're building towards. Does she or does she not get it? The men kind of get in her way. So does this fake friend in a way, so does you know? Probably just living in a new place and things like that. Yeah, and the person who took over the internship program and is changing the rules. So that thread of will she get it or won't she get it needs to be the focus of the query. Yeah, okay, and right now it's about her and Liam. Yes, which is fair, because before it was targeted, it was targeted as a romance, right, yeah, so what?

Speaker 1: 36:25

I think what I would do if I were you. I would start with the opening paragraph of like this is olivia. This is the beginning of her character arc. She's confident, she, she has her list. Whatever she moves to london finds out. Things with the internship have been changed. Also, there's these two guys, blah, blah. And then you probably want to end the second paragraph, or like, even if you do the next, you know two paragraphs end it with kind of like everything's blown up, yeah, and you know, like what do we want the question to be? Because you said you want to kind of pose her between like men's stuff and work stuff. Yeah, so is it like I guess, like is she gonna face a decision of I can pursue this and lose the man, or I can pursue the man and lose the work, or like yeah, so she's gonna pursue it.

Speaker 2: 37:15

I think she's what she kind of gives up is the fantasy of liam in this one. I think she kind of gives up on this, like so she thinks. But she kind of has this attitude of like, well, you know what, I'm not going to be invested in men who aren't interested in me. I'm only going to be invested in things that are about me. This internship wants me, this super elite. Thousands have applied. I got that, that, so why am I going to spend the same energy on things that don't want me?

Speaker 1: 37:49

right, okay, because what we want, like try to aim for some kind of question at the end that shows the stakes. So, like um, you know, will she try to reconcile things with liam at kind of like at the expense of being the best employee or intern she can be, or like something like that you know, because it shows um, or you can do it. Some like um, because if, if we don't want to give away the total ending of does she get the internship or not, it's, we want to show a question that shows it's in jeopardy.

Speaker 2: 38:18

So, like you know, when this is kind of like giving me like a moment where, like, maybe during her one of her spiral moments, like does she late turning something into them?

Speaker 1: 38:28

Like, is it?

Speaker 2: 38:29

like I can see where the what happens with them impacts, Like I should let it impact her internship and make her panic.

Speaker 1: 38:40

And I was thinking, when you were saying that the guy kicks her out and she feels worthless and the tube's not working, I was like, oh my God, is she going to be late for?

Speaker 1: 38:46

her interview, you know like that's exactly how to think about it, because it's, if you think about, like threads, right, the thread with the internship is the thickest thread, so, and then everything else kind of gets wound around, that, you know, or it pulls the thread up or down, like it basically throws, pulls it off path. So we want everything to touch on that internship thread and cause that's her goal, right. And then she, in the beginning I know there's a character that says, like you know, go have fun, and she does that, but it's like at the expense of her goals, yeah. And so I think he's trying to figure out how do I do both? Can I do both, you know? So, yeah, exactly what you just said. Make sure it affects that. And then we want to show like, in the midst of this spiral, she's kind of lost track of the ability to control all these things and we're left wondering, like what is going to happen.

Speaker 2: 39:38

Yeah, yeah, what is the result going to be and I I feel like it's also important to note that, like her body image issues is going to be like a huge part throughout the whole thing. Like you know, I think the way that she treats her body and views herself is going to be some of, like you know, some of the reasons why things don't pan out at the very beginning with her and liam is because she gets kind of caught in her own like I don't want to be seen naked. Like I can't I?

Speaker 2: 40:02

can't be with this guy naked, or and then later on, you know, we can kind of see her almost like abusing her body, where it's not full eating disorder but she crashed diets trying to, you know, get ready to have this run-in with yannis. But then there's, like these subtle moments where liam's, like you know, make sure she eats or you know, doesn't, like you know, let her go too hard at the gym and stuff. So like the, the her body image, stuff like is a big through line also yeah, and it's kind of a temperature of how she's doing in a way.

Speaker 1: 40:32

so I would put something like that in there too, like very small. But you could say, like in the opening paragraph, when she's a list maker, she's done the research, like she's healthier, physically healthier than ever, you know, and just set it up where, like, she thinks she's ready, and then you can use that kind of physical decline or like confidence decline in the part where it's like all these things are crashing down.

Speaker 2: 40:54

She's been binge eating or she's been whatever that symptom is, I think moving to a new city and gaining weight when you like, just kind of like almost the like graduate version of the freshman 15 type of thing. Like you just kind of you're drinking, you're eating and you're just like this isn't what I normally do.

Speaker 1: 41:12

Especially, as you like, go on dates and make friends and all these things, right. So, and it's funny because I think what you're kind of showing is like you can have this super focused work life and then not enjoy the fruits of everything else, or you can have there's three options like or you can have, like, the romance of your dreams, potentially, and then you pick the wrong person because of xyz and things explode. Ideally, you're kind of in the middle somewhere where it's balanced, yeah, yeah, and that's probably where she's going to get in book two, maybe. Yes, uh, we won't spoil that, but so, yeah, I would just refocus this whole thing on her and I bet you'll feel like the feeling you want when you think about her story. If you take liam's perspective out of the query, yeah, yeah, if we put in some of these other, because you'll have room put in some of these other things about, like you know, she's trying really hard. The internship is crazy, blah, blah, blah, and then see what you come up with there.

Speaker 2: 42:08

Yeah, no, I mean already talking to you makes me excited about it again. Oh good, Because I was definitely at a point of like just feeling like I was like I can't even look at it, like I'm so mad at it and it's like it, just it helps, I'm so mad at it and it's, it's like it.

Speaker 1: 42:26

Just it helps. I'm already like well, it's hard when you're in your little silo and you don't know what to do, Right, yeah, so the other thing I wanted to point out is in your query you said that this is a duology and no matter what kind of series you're writing, agents always want to know is this book complete? So usually the advice is if there's series potential, all they care about is book one. So you don't need to mention it's a duology. You could say there's potential for a follow-up or whatever. But you could also just take that out.

Speaker 1: 42:53

Okay, because technically you're going to answer the question of the story does she get the internship or not? Yeah, right, and we want it to feel like it's complete. And the reason why is that sometimes let's say that this gets picked up and you publish it. It might work and they might want more books, or it might not work and they're not going to buy it based on the fact that it's a duology and they don't care at this point until there's proof. So you can always say there's potential for a follow-up or whatever, or just totally leave it out. And the other part. So you said slow man's, and that's fun too. You especially can play up on tropes, because you know all the tropes right.

Speaker 1: 43:33

So, use that somehow in your query, like what are the other tropes? And put some of them in here, because that's fun. And then also let's see what else I wrote here. Oh, there was this part that says after one of the worst nights of her life, olivia is forced to face down her insecurities and decide if she likes the woman she's becoming. So I highlighted this and it's fun to talk about for anyone listening, because thought exercise Everyone who's listening. Think about what do we think Olivia's? We kind of know, but right. But if you just said someone has the worst night of her life, what does that mean? If we're forced to face down our own securities, what does that mean? Right, we don't really know who is the woman she's becoming. We don't really know, right. So we could all interpret that in a very different way. And even though you might actually know all these answers, the agent's like does she know these answers? Because it's reading really vague.

Speaker 2: 44:27

Yeah, no, I'm happy that you're saying that, because I wrote it and I was like, yeah, yeah, I see what you read and I'm like, yes, that's exactly. And then, as you're saying that, I'm like, okay, so, no, no one knows, that is fair.

Speaker 1: 44:49

Because it's true that that's what she's doing right, but we don't know what those specifics are like. So this could read any story where the woman's doing all these things. It's no longer jack's story about olivia, yeah, you know. So, when in doubt, always be specific, like you can say. We know what her specific insecurities are. There's maybe the internships in jeopardy. She's gotten body issues. You know who's the woman she's becoming Someone that puts work or love in front of work. Someone that gives up her goals for guys. That makes it so much more interesting. Yes, so there's a lot of other things I left in the query, just things for you to think about, little things to tweak and things like that. Do we want to talk about your opening pages?

Speaker 2: 45:23

I'm on this journey with you. Yeah, whatever, I can open those up.

Speaker 1: 45:27

Yeah, if you don't mind opening those up, and as you do, that there's. So Jack sent me eight pages. Like we said earlier, sometimes agents will only look at three to five. I've even seen, like in one random case, an agent just wanted the first page and they want to see, like, do I get sucked in? Do I think this is interesting? Do I have questions when I read this? You know, and cause questions make readers want to read forward. So that's what I was looking for, looking at Jack's pages, and I have in the side here, if you're watching the YouTube version, a lot of little comments like little nitpicky comments or things where maybe not nitpicky it was like made sense.

Speaker 1: 46:06

Okay, well, little things were like. Sometimes Jack might have said something and then said something similar a few lines later, so we're not going to focus on those. But basically, do you want to give people like a really quick overview of what happens in this chapter?

Speaker 2: 46:20

Yeah, so this is Olivia leaving home. Her and her mom are getting ready to head up to the airport lax, you know and she is getting ready. She's like literally about to walk out the door, just kind of giving a nice little reminiscent moment of like okay, this is the only home I've known, this is the only anything I've known. And before she is able to leave, childhood friend and family friend come to say goodbye one more time and she finally went. When she gets to the airport she gets some advice on how to handle her time in London. We don't know that she's going to London, we just know at this point that she's leaving, she's getting her master's and she's worked really hard for this. We picked up that her mom is a little bit more, you know, scattered brain a little bit, you know, kind of like she had to be an adult sometimes for her mom. And then at the very end, that's when we find out that she's going to London.

Speaker 1: 47:18

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 47:18

Okay, good job.

Speaker 1: 47:19

Yep, that's great so one thing like big picture wise. We'll only spend a second on this, but usually the advice is like when's the latest possible time the story could start? So there's a lot of options for where you could start you could start here.

Speaker 1: 47:34

You could start like when she gets to the airport, you could start as she's on the flight landing, as she's been there for a week, and she's like fumbling, you know. Or she could be on the phone with Gil and he could still say this message and she's like I just, you know, I've got it, I'm going to take the this tube to the this one and this one, you know, showing some of these same things. So that's we always want to have, like okay, there are options in mind. What's the latest possible time? We could start Like what's the day her life starts to change? And technically, yeah, she's going to London, right, so it's fair that her life's changing this day. So keep that in mind. We'll come back around to that in a second. So the main thing I wanted to point out to Jack was okay, what do we want readers to be questioning or wondering at the end of this opening chapter, ideally at the end of your first three pages? What are they? I'm not saying your chapter has to be over by three pages, but what are we questioning? Why are we turning the page to read forward?

Speaker 1: 48:29

And even when I got to the end, I was like okay, you know, like part of me is curious, like how's this going to go for her? I was curious about some details, like what is she doing? Yeah, but I was like you know, is that enough for me to not close the book and go make lunch? Yeah, yeah, Is it enough to make me want to stay up an hour later? You know, yeah, and I don't think so yet.

Speaker 1: 48:50

Yeah, so the reason I said what I said earlier about like we wanted to start on kind of a very interesting moment, very interesting day, and that could be today, so it could be this day that we already show her. Yeah, could be today, so it could be this day that we already show her you want to have something, some kind of questions come up that reflect the big picture. So for her, whether it's what you have in chapter one or a different period of time, what do we want? Like, what would be your ideal question of readers asking at this point I know it's like a giant question, but I know I mean, okay, so what do I want the readers to be questioning?

Speaker 2: 49:26

That is a great question. I guess it would be just kind of I mean it's so now I'm like, now I'm thinking about it, like I don't know. It's stupid for what I was like. I guess I'm thinking about what I currently would be questioning, which is like what happens in London, but that's not enough.

Speaker 1: 49:43

It's a good piece of it.

Speaker 2: 49:45

Yeah, I guess it would just kind of, you know, based off of like what you and I were talking about when it comes to this internship and making that like a bigger piece, cranking that up, I guess it would be wanting them to be invested in her this internship and seeing if she gets it or if she actually is as equipped as she's saying that she is.

Speaker 1: 50:07

Yeah, and so like let's, let's take her out of this scenario and just put her in something different for fun, a thought exercise. So imagine like we meet her, she's on the phone with Gil who's saying make sure you have fun, and mom's there in the background and whatever. And maybe she's looking in the mirror and she's kind of pinching the tummy roll a little bit, you know, and she's, or she's trying to, you know, cover up a little more or something that's showing us she's a little insecure and maybe she's running late and she's like I want to get to the interview before or the whatever pre-interview mixer early so that I, you know she's already got plans right. Yep, so you could show a lot of the same stuff. She's already there, she's.

Speaker 1: 50:46

No, we could use the like pinching of the tummy roll or whatever to kind of peak reader's interest, Like what's going on there. You know, she could. Even I'm just this is so weird, but I'm making it up like probably because you had a kitty in your recording area earlier, but like she leaves her apartment in London and there's a little kitty on the front side table and she's, you know, she's touches its nose as good luck and she's like you know we're going to change our life or like whatever. She's got this idea of how it's going to work and the more specific we can get about that this idea of how it's going to work and the more specific we can get about that, the more readers are going to be like oh my God.

Speaker 1: 51:19

But is it, yeah, is it going to change your life? And like, what's going on with your tummy? And why is Gil telling you to have fun? Like, do you not have fun? Are we worried about you? You know? So you can kind of like layer so much stuff like that into a scene, yeah. And like, opening scenes are very hard, right, yeah. And then, you know, depending on what you do too, we want to think about the conflict, because conflict piques questions. So in your opening now the friends come over. That's kind of the first unexpected thing, yeah, and it's not actually like that bad right, because we know she has time to get to the airport, she has extra time, so like, in theory, it's okay.

Speaker 2: 51:54

Although it's not even conflict. It's like, yeah, all within her plan.

Speaker 1: 51:57

Well, it kind of is because she's like she doesn't want to get emotional about it. Right, mom's a little bit stressful, that's conflict, but it's not like super exciting. We'll say that, right? No, it's fair, and I don't say that in a mean way. It's just like we really want to poke at these opening pages so that you can get what you want.

Speaker 1: 52:15

So it's said with love, so like a great example that I know you're probably not going to do because we probably don't meet these guys that quick. But imagine she's running out the apartment touching the kiddies nose and saying our life's going to change, and she's rushing to the subway, she grabs a baguette or whatever on the way and as she's like, like you know, doing everything super fast, she pays whatever. She bumps into this guy, literally yeah, and it's like the uh, yannis right or whatever, and like so at the imagine at the end of a chapter like that, they talk and and he's like you know it picks up her bag from the floor and it's like their eyes meet and she's like, oh, my god, crap, I gotta go. Yeah, think about how many questions we have at the end of that chapter, can I?

Speaker 2: 52:57

tell you the meet cute with um liam, yeah, okay, so the the meet cute currently. So her mom helps her move to london and she's just kind of like we're about to go on vacation again. Like back to her, like we're about to go on vacation, we have to leave, like I only have so much time with my mom before she takes back. She takes off home and she's already and they're about to go on vacation. We have to leave, like I only have so much time with my mom before she takes back. She takes off home and she's already and they're about to travel around the uk and she had um. She's just kind of like in her own world. Yeah, their meet cute is from liam's perspective and he just kind of comes in and just sees like hot mom, hot daughter type of thing and so he's like trying to kind of be charming and it's like hello, and she just like completely dismisses him like yeah, just, she just doesn't want to talk to him.

Speaker 2: 53:43

Chapter or so later she realizes like she kind of misses, misses the same cold freshers week which a lot of uk universities have where you just go and you get to meet other students and stuff. She skipped all that to go be with her mom and she realizes like oh, maybe I shouldn't have skipped that, goes to a pub quiz, walks up to a table and is like can I just sit with you guys? And does it recognize him? And he just kind of gets more and more mad until finally she blurts out like oh my God, you're my Liam. And then it's like no, I'm not, it's like you're my neighbor Just trying to smooth it over. So that's there. She doesn't recognize him. It makes him mad. And then when she does recognize him, he kind of gets pissy. And then she gets pissy back with him.

Speaker 1: 54:26

Yeah, and so imagine if we kind of merged some ideas here. It's like she's talking to Gil and mom or whatever, and feel free to take or leave this idea, but, just as an example, she's talking to Liam, her mom. She's like rushing out because maybe in the beginning of the conversation that we didn't see, gil convinced her to go to this mixer and she's been like trying to get dressed and hurrying and she's talking to them. Yeah, she meets Liam on accident and then like part of the mixer, that whatever is that pub thing? So that's where she's rushing to, yeah, and then Liam's there and it's kind of like you know you didn't want to talk to me earlier.

Speaker 2: 54:58

Now you want to talk to me now, or?

Speaker 1: 55:00

Right, and imagine if that was like one of the opening scene or one of your opening scenes. And then the question is like OK, we're really rooting for you to get this internship. Gil's really worried about you. You've been kind of pinching your tummy like what's going on there.

Speaker 2: 55:17

And there and you met this really cute guy that's your neighbor, like we are so in yeah, I can see that where it's like, yeah, you have the bot, you cover the body stuff, you cover internship, the like someone like you know friends and family from home, yeah, worried, and then boy.

Speaker 1: 55:28

And then you meet boys that's like four things that you have listed typically in a story that's a true romance. We wouldn't want to do something necessarily. Some stories we get a true romance. We wouldn't want to do something necessarily. Some stories we get away with this. But we wouldn't want to do that in the first chapter, usually because we kind of want to build a little bit till we meet the guy, but because we're saying this is women's fiction, that totally works. Yeah, so something to think about. Am I back?

Speaker 2: 55:52

to women's fiction and that's where I'm like. Where do you think I land?

Speaker 1: 55:59

I'm going to take a sip of water. I think right now, the reason you can't decide is because you're asking the draft to tell you what it is. I think you're in a position where it could be either, and you need to tell it what is your vision, what do you want it to be, and we will make the draft match. Yeah, yeah, and this is like just so you're not alone in this predicament. I see writers who do this all the time and and it's kind of like you just want what you've already written to work.

Speaker 2: 56:19

So you're yeah, go ahead. You know what You've inspired me. I'm looking over here at like cause, like I'm in the setting that where we normally record, and I'm looking at all these books and something that my mom said to me where she I was telling her I was like I guess, like I wrote women's fiction, like you know, like it, you know it doesn't have a happy ending, it has all this other stuff. And my mom said like, oh well, that makes like. She's like, yeah, you know you want to write what you read. And I told her I'm like I don't want to read women's fiction, I want to read romance. Like I don't read women's fiction. I, okay, I love romance. I love, I love the conflict of will they, won't they. I love the. You know the hurt and I like the struggle with it and sometimes I like it high level, you know, and sometimes I like a little bit more meaty.

Speaker 2: 57:05

But like I do not read women's fiction, that's not what I enjoy to read as much. I also haven't like gone on a journey, either with it that's a big deal, yeah.

Speaker 1: 57:14

So what if we said that you're you know it's fine, we deal, yeah. So what if we said that you're you know it's fine, we explored women's fiction? And what if we said that you're writing a romance that isn't like, it's not surfacy, because some are and some readers like that and they want a quick treat or whatever? That's fine, everyone has their place. But what if yours focuses? You know cause? All romances they do focus on character change. Yeah, to an extent. And your dial, your volume dial, that can just be turned up and I think that's great.

Speaker 2: 57:43

Yes, and thank you. And so I am adamant that this book they don't end up together. I mean, and again, unless someone tells me hey, you really need to make this a like you know they're probably gonna tell you that.

Speaker 1: 57:54

I'm just gonna say it because if it's a, to tell you that I'm just going to say it Because if it's a romance, like you said, you want the will they, won't they.

Speaker 2: 58:01

And that's my struggle. Right Is like I love romance, I love reading romance, but I also and I love the will. They won't they.

Speaker 1: 58:11

But I also love her journey. She can have her journey without being with him or or like is there a scenario where she gets with yannis because okay? So here's a thought, like you know, in the sarah j maffs books and this, I'm like it's they're old enough now where I can just talk about spoilers. Yeah, yeah. So selena is the fake love interest, well, right, and then, like selena also, she has no, I know, but in the other ones and throw a glass, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 58:38

Yeah, so she has um kale and Dorian right and then she eventually gets a throw in. So like would that kind of scenario do anything for you?

Speaker 2: 58:48

You've interest me.

Speaker 1: 58:49

Okay, cause the reason I'm asking is, like, even as a reader, you want to know do they get together or not, right? So like you have to give readers what they want, you can do it in whatever way you want. So in the first book maybe she will say in air quotes, picks Giannis or whatever, for whatever reason she thinks it's going to allow her to have, like you know, that closure or whatever closure or, like you know, maybe she knows he's not that serious, so I can pick him and like work, you know, or do my internship, whatever.

Speaker 1: 59:19

Whatever her reasons are, we want to believe that. We want to believe there's a happily ever after, yeah, even if it's a happily for now, right, you know? So just let me think about, because you, I think you can't, and I'll say, like, of course everyone can disagree with me, whatever, but you can't put this out in the market as a romance and then not have some version of Happily Ever After, even if it's a happily for now from your perspective. And I think that's the tough part, because the ending you want doesn't match your genre.

Speaker 2: 59:54

I know, can't we just come up?

Speaker 1: 59:56

can I just invent the jack genre, the well then so the other thing too is like, because there are like women's fiction and romance, there's things that blend and kind of overlap, yeah. So, like I know you said um jamie varan's main character, energy that's what, something that you recommended yeah, and you listed that as a comp right. Yeah, I would.

Speaker 2: 1:00:17

I I was able. I wasn't able to finish it, but I started a little bit of it and then I just put it in there because I was like I'm going to switch these out because I still don't know my identity okay.

Speaker 1: 1:00:25

So when you finish that I'm not going to spoil it for you there's I'll say there's really good character growth. How am I going to say this without spoiling what happens? Just Just when you finish it, think about how you felt about this character's ability to grow and change, versus what happens with the romance.

Speaker 2: 1:00:41

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:00:42

And do you want to write a book like that? Or do you want to write a book where there's no happily ever after, there's no romance closure.

Speaker 2: 1:00:48

Oh, oh.

Speaker 1: 1:00:51

Because I think if you were self-publishing, you could choose your own adventure and see what happens. But I don't want to self-publish. If you're trying to fit it in a market that exists, I think you have to choose.

Speaker 2: 1:01:02

You know, yeah, which bucket you're going to fit into, and either way there's going to be a concession okay which I know is like not fun to hear, but I know, but, like you know, I, this is what I need to hear. This is uh okay. Well, now I'm wondering. I'm like is there any way that I could combine the first and second book? Yeah, so I yeah, I was so like. I was gonna ask you that you were like I can, I could feel you holding my hand as you said that, yeah, like.

Speaker 1: 1:01:35

I was gonna ask you this because I think sometimes when we're writing series, whether it's two books or three books, whatever I see a lot of writers who they have to get the story out, and they get it out and kind of a like, I'll say, linear way. And what I mean by linear is, like, in your opening chapter we kind of have one thing happening Right, there's like one focus of the scene.

Speaker 2: 1:01:56

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:01:56

Where in a finished book usually there's layers to a scene, like when we were talking about earlier, she touches the kitty on the door out to the pub crawl, right, like there's multiple things going on. Um so it. You know, sometimes what happens in a series is like you can condense things and still fit everything. It's just work. We need to layer it more. Okay, so, like you could, because I, when I hear you say the stuff about yannis, I'm like that would be a great midpoint for her, like a one book midpoint where it's like you know, things seem great and then it's like we just bring her down or it could be an all is lost can we, can I poke your brain?

Speaker 1: 1:02:34

yeah, a little bit if you have to poke or pick. You can't poke my brain, but you can pick it. Okay, can I pick? Okay?

Speaker 2: 1:02:41

So in book two I like that villain more. It's a guy and he is very manipulative and gaslights her on being like, kind of in an open relationship despite that not being what she wants, like she's a love interest. He's a love interest and she gets with him and she it's very much and she's like she is romantically interested in him but he kind of like gaslights her to be in an open relationship despite that just not being her thing. But that's also like well, no, no, that's like being matured right, like I'm a, I'm an adult, like this isn't my adult choice yeah annoying.

Speaker 2: 1:03:23

Yeah, and he does that. Um, he actually kicks, like he hears about what yannis did to her, kicking her out in the middle of the night and he's mad at her, like when they finally break up and he manipulates her to reenact that moment. I can now see where I can potentially have this like thing that happened with. It doesn't even have to be honest, it could be a thing that happened that hit my mic, that like was a very intense thing for her, that happened years ago and just kind of stuck with her versus it, seeing it happen, seeing it play out. God, savannah, it's just. Why are you making this a better book?

Speaker 1: 1:04:03

why are you making? This is like, and that's much better, like? I see, when you say all that to him like, this is getting really interesting. The cool so the cool thing is also the kind of like crappy thing is is that you have all of this figured out. You have um. Do you have both books written?

Speaker 2: 1:04:17

I do, and I like there and it's funny because, like the friend who's been helping me edit, she was like these are two separate books, like the vibe is different a lot of things are different and I have so much fun with the second book and it is a lot more romancy yeah, well, because we're building to that happily ever after.

Speaker 1: 1:04:35

Yeah, so I, I like this idea, like you're saying, the yannis or whoever that is in the past. Yeah, then she kind of moves to london, she meets this guy that ends up gaslighting her all the while liam's in the background. Yeah, she's pursuing this internship.

Speaker 2: 1:04:48

Um, maybe you know there's drama with mom or whatever and that at this point I can, I can have her actually have the internship, because if I'm getting rid of book two because book one was trying to get the internship, book two- is getting the internship. Now it's like, well, let's kick that off.

Speaker 1: 1:05:05

Well, and imagine that opening if, like, let's say, she spent the summer interviewing and now we're meeting her and she's on the way, or she's on the way to her first day at the internship or something. Yeah, yeah, you know like we're invested the thing. It sucks to have to like get rid of words, right, but also you've done all the thinking, you know how things are going to unfold, so it's not wasted.

Speaker 2: 1:05:26

Yeah, yeah. It's not wasted and I there's things that I like a lot in the second book, and it's like if I had to get rid of one, I would get rid of the things that happened in the first.

Speaker 1: 1:05:39

Yeah, and that you don't have to get rid of them. They could be backstory, right? They can be bonus chapters, a bonus novella for people when they subscribe to your email list. Yes, so one just to like, take you out of your situation. This writer I worked with a few years ago. She had 40 to 60,000 words, I can't remember, written of this draft and she was felt the same way as you. Like I've got it figured out, I'm in love with it. Blah, blah, blah. And I had to tell her like something similar, like I think you need to start over and I think here's why. And she, she was like not stoked on that idea. She did, and she ended up getting an agent. And she you know all this stuff. So sometimes it's like you know the right answer. It's not going to feel good, like it's not feeling good to get rid of words and combine things and things like that. But what if it's the thing that gets you what you want?

Speaker 2: 1:06:26

And you're right, though Like it's at the end of the day and I hate using the term surface level versus non-surface level with romance books because, like I genuinely love and respect both, like I do, I agree, there's, I you know, I wish there was a different terminology for it, but I can't write a surface level romance book like it's just not in my bones, like I needed to have a lot more. You know stuff behind it. But you're asking. This is why we're doing this, you're helping me. But I love romance and I do want them to get together. And if that means what do I sacrifice? I don't want to sacrifice this point of view. I don't want to sacrifice their happy ending. I would rather sacrifice this ending than sacrifice those other parts.

Speaker 1: 1:07:13

God, you're good. Look how you brought us around at the beginning of the conversation when I said what are your non-negotiables? And so you found them and now, okay, we know it's going to be romance Book one doesn't read like that. That's okay. We have a solution for how to make it read like that. Your query was written the way it is because I think inside of you you're like I want this to be romance.

Speaker 2: 1:07:35

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:07:36

I'm going to try to like reverse engineer things to make book one's ending make sense, and with the women's fiction, kind of exploration. And now you're yeah, I think it sounds like you're more certain of what you want to do.

Speaker 2: 1:07:47

Well, originally this was all one book, you know. But then I was like I can't have 160, 160 page book that you know that I am invested there and I was like, all right, split right down the middle, this is the natural middle. And now it's like, you know, going through it where I don't need it to be a duology, like it really doesn't. The book I want to write after this actually is a fantasy. Yeah, cool, I just want this like, I want this one and I want it out there because the story means a lot to me. So I get it. I see what you're saying. You made me see the light.

Speaker 1: 1:08:22

Oh, my God, this is good and I know it's hard, so not to discount how it probably feels, but it probably feels like eh, but also exciting because you're like, I know what you do.

Speaker 2: 1:08:37

It's more exciting than anything else because, like I said, there's like moments in the second book that are very romancy.

Speaker 2: 1:08:40

So you hit, I hit some of the tropes there I have characters that I really enjoy in there and I just was like sad to not see them for a long time, like you know like I like these guys, I like what happens here and I like the idea of merging this and just kind of like you know things, that there are moments that I do like here, like you haven't seen. There's like a Halloween scene where her and Liam almost get together, but that's the first time you see her pull back. Yeah, you know, I'm sure I could use that. Yeah, it's like I can still have that or, you know, rather than this, like Giannis in that scene, like that build up, have what's his name.

Speaker 1: 1:09:20

Boring old compared to Giannis.

Speaker 2: 1:09:24

Wait, I might have to bleep that name out, because he's based off of a real person.

Speaker 1: 1:09:31

Okay, so how are you going to rephrase that? The guy that gaslights her?

Speaker 2: 1:09:35

The guy who gaslights her, yeah. So how are you going to rephrase that? The guy that gaslights her? The guy who gaslights her, yeah. So I'm going to. I want to like I rather again, his story is more interesting the guy who gaslights her, yes.

Speaker 1: 1:09:47

Well, I mean that's. I kind of feel like you came naturally to your own conclusion, which I love. What I would do so if I were you, I would make like a chapter by chapter or scene by scene.

Speaker 2: 1:10:00

Recap of what's in books.

Speaker 1: 1:10:01

Yeah, and just say like okay, you know, save a version and then make a new version of what does this look like as one book, and then you can manipulate that before you start manipulating your draft.

Speaker 2: 1:10:12

Yeah, yeah, you're right, because there's. I mean like I was already inserting things that like I didn't really want to do, like her friend betty came and visit and I'm like, yeah, I was, I was writing those chapters and I was dragging my feet like I just was like phil, like a lot of fill in later yeah, you gotta listen to your gut, I do oh my god, and you're right like just lay out those, see what I like, see what I can do, knowing that like the in, like her story with the internship, like I still want it to reflect these like highs and lows.

Speaker 2: 1:10:46

You know, I think there can still be those wins and losses in there.

Speaker 1: 1:10:49

Yeah, but just kind of build it up a little bit more yeah, and I think, when in doubt, think about how you can pit like work stuff, internship stuff against romance, even if it's not like she's literally choosing between both things in every scene. Just use one to complicate the other and you'll probably feel it starts to get really streamlined.

Speaker 2: 1:11:08

Not knowing anything more about my book. How long of a timeframe can do you think a story can be, cause the story originally took place over like I think, two and a half, maybe three years. Okay, because I do want to condense, I don't and I don't want it to be like a six month thing. I guess I still I'm going to have to figure it out I guess it'll still be like one year, maybe one and a half years. Um, just because I need the like, you know, actual, like graduation and the whole right thing to take place.

Speaker 1: 1:11:41

But I think that's okay. I mean, I was just talking to somebody about this the other day, like you know. I know this is a different genre, but like harry potter's a school year and magicians was like four to five years in the first book. Yeah, yeah. So it just depends what you want to do, and I think it's smart facing it around graduation and then saying if I go like six months out in each direction, what does that look like? Do I want to start and end in summer, or do I want?

Speaker 2: 1:12:05

to start and end in fall.

Speaker 1: 1:12:06

So I don't think there's a wrong answer. I think it's not like you have to have it be six months for any reason.

Speaker 2: 1:12:13

Yeah, yeah, no, I mean it's's more of like I got like in my head of like does two years make sense? Is that too much? Like you know and I always get, I always kind of get I'll have to like, re, like, rethink about this like breakup scene that they have, because I don't, I'm not a fan of like how they get back together necessarily the hard part, I think, is like, because I think in terms of holidays I don't know why, but like show, do you want to show two halloweens, do you want to show yeah christmas is, or do you want to kind of bookend it?

Speaker 1: 1:12:45

so you're getting like you start at christmas, you end at christmas, or you start at halloween and halloween or whatever yeah, yeah no, you're fair, you're right.

Speaker 2: 1:12:54

Two christmases for sure, I do like the idea of two Christmases, because the second Christmas is like where they get together. Okay, I am very proud of that moment. I am proud of that scene.

Speaker 1: 1:13:08

You could somehow start with like either she's already in London and going to miss Christmas with mom Uh-huh you know or like maybe mom's coming to visit she's already been there. But like think about things like that and what you do, and don't want to do and you'll probably land on a right timeline.

Speaker 2: 1:13:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I guess, like also I always kind of like struggle with the whole third act, breakup things, because it's like there's only so much that when you're doing a book about relationships, like what are the various options, that, like you know, boiling point, like I'm not gonna have her kidnapped. That's not like there has nothing to do with this and it makes sense for them to break up. Like you know, her thing about him is like you're gonna commit or not and I'm not like.

Speaker 2: 1:13:49

After I dealt with this other guy, I'm not going to like which makes more sense with the guy who is gaslighting her to be in an open relationship where it makes more sense for her to be like I can't do that again with someone who didn't want to commit with me, so you were you're in this or you're not in this yeah, think about with like breakup stuff too, because that's totally valid.

Speaker 1: 1:14:09

What you just said works. Think about how, like, what she's done to either compensate for her insecurities around whatever, yeah, or what she's done for work, or what she's done for the relationship, can affect all the other relationships. So, like, has she not called mom every Tuesday because she's been hanging out with Liam? And because she's been hanging out with Liam, has it affected work? Or, like you know, at first maybe she wasn't calling mom enough because of the internship. Now it's because of that and Liam. So just think about how everything starts to kind of ping off each other, yeah, and you'll find it starts to become organic.

Speaker 2: 1:14:43

Okay, this was no, this was great. It makes me happy for it again. To be honest, I just I hadn't opened this document in a while and it just was like making me dread it more. Opened this document in a while and it just was like making me dread it more, and I think that it's like I, now that I'm in a place of like I, I just I do. I don't read women's fiction, I read romance. I'm in my happy space.

Speaker 1: 1:15:09

That's what makes me happy, and kind of what this is about too. It's about relationships, self-love, other love, right.

Speaker 2: 1:15:22

It could be more like. It doesn't have like and I'm fine and I you know now that I'm in a place where it's like okay, I accept that it's romance. However, I also accept that it's just going to be a romance that has a lot of other layers to it.

Speaker 1: 1:15:30

That's great. There are plenty of stories like that, so yours will be in good company.

Speaker 2: 1:15:41

And when you finish main character energy, let me know how you feel about that. Yeah, I will, I will. It was I had to finish book club in the summer, the summer book club and I was like, okay, this is adding it to my TBR of life. Yeah, no worries. Oh, my god, I think you, you, I, you broke my brain, but you healed it too.

Speaker 1: 1:15:52

I was gonna say did I fix it this time?

Speaker 2: 1:15:54

You healed my brain yes, it is Again like yeah, I'm just happy that, I'm happy that it is what it's going to be.

Speaker 1: 1:16:03

Good, that's all we ever want, right.

Speaker 2: 1:16:05

Yeah, yeah, I'm excited to revisit retackle and just kind of like have the book that I actually love.

Speaker 1: 1:16:13

Good, that's important.

Speaker 2: 1:16:15

Yeah, I appreciate it. Thank you for suggesting and being willing to do this.

Speaker 1: 1:16:19

And, yeah, thanks for sharing it too, cause I know there's people out there that are maybe writing for the first time or they're struggling with their queries and hopefully we got some you know, some things that we talked about with yours that can give other people aha moments or clarity and things like that.

Speaker 2: 1:16:33

So, thank you, yeah, and I, I really it is like something that like I do, like I don't know some of my flowery language and some of my like descriptions. I think I say something in the first chapter of like. She likes the color of gray because it's just so opposite of what it is. Well, of course, liam's eyes are going to be great you know, like it's like I like these little moments of like just stuff that I'm going gonna have and everything.

Speaker 2: 1:16:56

So, yeah, um, I and I like not, that there's not. This is not going to be an interview. I'm like we're not warning the listener. This will still have fun moments, but like I do love more yeah, it's still a romance.

Speaker 1: 1:17:10

it's just going to have a layer of character depth and yeah and again, not to say that other romances don't there's a sliding scale and you're just going to be on that side of the scale where we go deeper, we sometimes tackle a little bit darker things, and you know that's great and I'm okay with that.

Speaker 2: 1:17:25

All right, I think that's my home. I think that's where I live.

Speaker 1: 1:17:28

Yeah, good. I love it. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show today, Jack. Let my listeners know where they can find you around the internet, where they can find your awesome podcast and things like that.

Speaker 2: 1:17:38

Thank you so much for having me. This has been great, despite, like my like deep breathing over here. It's like I've had so much fun. They can find me at book talk for book talk, so that's B-O-O-K-T-A-L-K. For F-O-R book talk, b-o-o-k-t-o-k. And you can find us on TikTok on podcasts anywhere you stream podcasts and on Instagram and, if you love ACOTAR and doing a literary analysis that's where the podcast for that?

Speaker 1: 1:18:09

Yes, they are definitely the podcast for that. It's one of my favorite podcasts. We will link to all that in the show notes. Now, I know this episode was a little longer than what you're used to hearing on the Fiction Writing Made Easy podcast, but I hope you found it interesting and I hope, if you're out there and you're having a similar situation to Jack's, where maybe you've written a story that has a genre identity crisis or you're setting out to write a story and you're not quite sure where it fits, I hope this discussion has at least helped spark some thoughts for you, even if you're not quite at that quote-unquote right answer just yet.

Speaker 1: 1:18:39

I also really wanted to share this conversation just to kind of peel back the curtain on what a book coach can do. So Jack and I aren't technically working together, but this conversation really mirrors a lot of the conversations that I have and my fellow book coaches have with writers. So if you're feeling stuck on your work in progress or if you're kind of stuck at that starting line, if you thought about working with a book coach before but you felt like maybe it's kind of scary or maybe you're not quite ready to do that yet, or whatever those thoughts and kind of fears that come up are. Hopefully this conversation has kind of shown you that working with a book coach isn't something that's scary. And you know, a coach is really meant to be someone on your team helping you produce the kind of book that you want. So they're there to help you get the story out of your head and onto the page and, ideally, help you match what's on the page to what's in your head. And although I'm not taking one-on-one clients anymore I'm not taking private book coaching clients anymore I am about to open the doors to my live Notes to Novel course. So this is my online course that takes you from idea to finished draft, and with this live cohort we are doing eight weeks of live Q&A calls with me. So it's the next best thing to having me as your personal book coach. Enrollment for Notes to Novel is going to open again at the end of this month, like I said for that live cohort, that starts on September 9th. So if you are interested in working with me in a group setting, keep an eye on your inbox for that.

Speaker 1: 1:20:08

So that's it for today's episode. As always, thank you so much for tuning in and for showing your support. If you want to check out any of the links I mentioned in this episode, you can find them in the show notes listed in the description of each episode inside your podcast player or at savannahgilbocom forward slash podcast Ratings and reviews. Tell Apple that this is a podcast that's worth listening to and, in turn, your reviews will help this podcast get in front of more fiction writers just like you. And while you're there, go ahead and hit that follow button, because there's going to be another brand new episode next week, full of actionable tips, tools and strategies to help you become a better writer. So I'll see you next week and until then, happy writing.