Speaker 1: 0:33

Harry goes to Madame Malkin's robe shop. He's alone because Hagrid's nauseous after the Gringotts cart ride, and this is where he meets that unnamed character, which we know is Draco, who he instantly dislikes. And Harry does face a crisis here. So Draco insults Hagrid and it's kind of like do I stand up for Hagrid and make this kid mad and make an enemy, or do I side with the kid and betray my new friend Hagrid? So there is a crisis, but the crisis isn't strong enough to create a value shift in the scene.

Speaker 1: 1:08

Welcome to the Fiction Writing Made Easy podcast. My name is Savannah Gilbo and I'm here to help you write a story that works. I want to prove to you that writing a novel doesn't have to be overwhelming. So each week I'll bring you a brand new episode with simple, actionable and step-by-step strategies that you can implement in your writing right away. So whether you're brand new to writing or more of a seasoned author looking to improve your craft, this podcast is for you. So pick up a pen and let's get started.

Speaker 1: 1:37

In today's episode, I'm taking you down a little bit of a rabbit hole into one of the scenes in Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone, and that is the scene in chapter five, Diagon Alley. Now I wanted to go on a deep dive into this scene because it was one of the hardest scenes for me to analyze when I was putting together the Story Grid Masterwork Analysis Guide that I've been talking about for the last few weeks, and I wanted to take you behind the scenes to share where Abigail and I landed in terms of is this one scene, two scenes or multiple scenes, and how does it actually work from a craft perspective? So we recorded a video for StoryGrid's YouTube channel and I'm going to share the audio of that video with you today. I will also post the link to the video in the show notes in case you want to check that out as well. Now I am going to provide a quick summary of the Diagon Alley scene, but you might want to read through the chapter and then listen to this episode again after you've re-familiarized yourself with the text. I think it will help you see what I'm talking about in a little bit of a different way. If you've actually read the scene In the episode, you're going to hear Abigail and I talk about how we look at scenes in the Masterwork Analysis Guide. So the four questions that we use to analyze every single scene in this book and then I will walk you through the nuts and bolts of these smaller moments within the scene to show you how everything works. So it really is a jam-packed, deep dive type of episode and I think you're really going to enjoy it. So, with that being said, let's go ahead and dive right into the conversation. Okay, so we are back to talk to you today about Diagon Alley, which is one of the hardest scenes that we had to analyze for this masterwork analysis guide, and in part, it's because there's so much going on. It's the whole chapter is about 6,500 words, which is a lot, but we wanna walk you through what might seem like a strange result to land at. So we landed that, this whole chapter being one scene and I know that we're going to get questions about that, despite what we have in the analysis guide. So we really wanted to walk you through the logic and just show you how we broke it down. So I think this will be really fun. I'm going to go ahead and read this little short summary of what happens in the chapter and then we will dig into it.

Speaker 1: 3:47

So, in this chapter, Harry and Hagrid, they go to Diagon Alley.

Speaker 1: 3:51

They're going to pick up school supplies and a package for Dumbledore.

Speaker 1: 3:55

They pass through the Leaky Cauldron where every witch and wizard, including Harry's soon-to-be professor Quirrell, recognizes Harry.

Speaker 1: 4:02

Then they visit Gringotts and they get Harry's money and a mysterious package for Dumbledore that Harry is very curious about. After that, Harry gets fitted for a robe at Madame Malkin's Robe Shop, where he meets an unnamed first-year student, which we know is Draco Malfoy, who he immediately dislikes. And then Harry and Hagrid visit their last stop, which is Ollivander's, where Harry gets his wand, and in the shop, Mr Ollivander has a lot to say about Harry's legacy, including that the world can expect great things from him, especially now that he has the brother of Voldemort's wand, which is no big deal, right. And then later in the same scene, Harry tells Hagrid that he doesn't think he can live up to everyone's expectations, but Hagrid reassures him you'll be fine once you get to Hogwarts. So very condensed version of what happens. We want to walk you through how we analyze this and why we got to our answer. So Abigail's going to talk us through how we analyze it and then we'll go through the scene specifically.

Speaker 2: 4:59

Sure. So we're looking for a story event, which means that we're looking for how there's an active change of a universal human value for one or more characters. Usually we're tracking the protagonist right. So how is there a value change, something that is important to this character? What is their goal, how they're going to achieve that, how is there a value change from the beginning of the scene into the end of it? And this is because there is a conflict that is then going to force them to make a decision. That decision is going to create an action that is going to create the value shift.

Speaker 2: 5:32

So a working scene means at least one of these story events in order to work as the scene, in order to figure out if there's a working scene, you'd like to answer for Socratic questions. So the first of these questions is what are the characters literally doing, that is, what are their micro, on the surface actions? We see this as the reader's perspective, so you're thinking about this on the most literal scale of things. This can be as simple as a location, right? So it is truly just plot. What has happened literally in the plot to show that we've advanced this, advanced the story by the scene change, okay.

Speaker 1: 6:11

And so in Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone in this scene, what they're doing literally is they're shopping for school supplies in Diagon Alley. So the change we called out here was that Harry was in the muggle world and now he's in the wizarding world. So again, very literal. You don't need a ton of context to get this OTS change.

Speaker 2: 6:30

It's just what's actually happening on the surface and then the second question is going to deal with the character's perspective. So here we're thinking why internal right, like what's going on internally? How is this developing the character? Remember that characters are best developed by crisis, by putting them in a crisis, because then they're forced to make a decision and that's going to develop their character. So we learn who a character is by how they make decisions. When you're looking at the question itself, we label this as what is the essential tactic of the character? What above-the-surface macro behaviors are they employing that are linked to the universal human value? So, to phrase that, like, what is the value change, that literal change, right? And how is the character going to be forced to make a decision that's going to help them change where they are internally and how they are? You know, seeing something how are they starting? Where they are? Where's their mindset at there at the beginning? Where is it at the end?

Speaker 1: 7:37

Yeah, and you can think about this too. That helped me is like what do they want? Why do they want it and what are they doing and how are they coming at this thing that they want? So it's internal. So in harry potter and the sorcerer's stone, we know harry is like brand new to everything.

Speaker 1: 7:51

In diagon alley he wants to understand the world he's a part of and then once, once he gets there, conflict happens because he's like there's so much I don't know, I don't understand, so he starts feeling insecure. Now we also like to look at this from a couple of different perspectives, because we're nerds and it's fun. Also, it's helpful for writing your own stories. But the wizarding world plays a part in this too. So they're, in a way, the antagonist of this scene. Right, Because Harry wants to understand things. He doesn't really like being in the spotlight and they're going to pull him into the spotlight. So and it's just because of what they naturally want so the wizarding world, all the witches and wizards they want to welcome Harry back and give him the recognition and the fanfare and the hugs that he deserves.

Speaker 1: 8:33

But it makes Harry really uncomfortable. So he wants to learn about the world, but once he does. He's like I don't know if I have what it takes to live up to your expectations. There's a whole lot I don't know. So it's what Harry wants versus what the scene antagonist wants, which in this case is the wizarding world, and there's shades of this as we get into it which we'll talk about. So the change we called out here is he had ignorance or he was ignorant about the wizarding world. He has some knowledge. By the end of the scene. He came in feeling a sense of awe and he left the scene feeling insecure. So these are internal values that we can tie back to the global story, which we'll talk about in a second Yep.

Speaker 2: 9:11

And then the third question deals with what, beyond the surface, universal human values have changed for more one or more characters in the scene and which of those value changes is most important to be included in the story grid spreadsheet. So we're thinking about this as author perspective. Another way that we look at this is when you're choosing the value that goes with the spreadsheet you're thinking how can I defend that this scene impacts the global value shift? So we're working with an action story. In general, we're on a life and death value spectrum scale. You can use different words to emphasize where that life and death is. Ultimately it's saying that we're on the survival scale. Where are we and how is this scene?

Speaker 2: 9:53

Even if Diagon Alley doesn't necessarily have a life threatening moment in the scene and, by the way, there should be plenty of scenes that don't have that literal life and death, because otherwise it's way too intense all over the place You're going to undervalue the ones that really do have those moments. But regardless of that in this can we say, what happens in this scene still influences and impacts the value shift on that life and death scale. So the author knows this, because the author is God of the story. The author knows what the reader and what the characters don't know, which means that that's how they can play and move their chess pieces in a way that creates surprises and as important stuff like is this a scene that I kill my darlings with, or do I keep it, and why do I keep it?

Speaker 1: 10:38

So that's how we make a decision with this question yeah, and so and this is, I think, has developed into our favorite, uh, way of looking at scenes, just because it's it's so sometimes hard to think through, but really rewarding once you get to the answer and you're like, okay, I get it. So in this scene, what we called out was, although harry feels insecure about his ability to assimilate into the wizarding world and live up that reputation that other people have of him, or the expectations, he does succeed in collecting everything he needs to go to Hogwarts and he's going to go there, learn all those spells, forge the alliances and develop that confidence and courage needed to face Voldemort in the end and courage needed to face Voldemort in the end. So on one hand, he's grown more insecure, but he's also accomplished his scene goal, or that objective, which is get your school supplies and the visit to Gringotts. We'll go into these little micro bits in a second. But the visit to Gringotts is especially important because this is what piques Harry's curiosity and that need to find out what's in the package and if he's not curious about it, he's not curious about it. He's not going to be called to investigate or later protect it, and if he doesn't do that, then Voldemort will succeed in coming to power again.

Speaker 1: 11:46

So that's what Abigail was saying all these little chess pieces. There's so many different things going on and the author, from this analysis perspective we pretend to be the author so we know something very different than a first time reader will, in that, on the surface of, we're just visiting Diagon Alley and having a great time, and Harry's also seeing something different. He's feeling insecurity and also wonder and all that. So it's a really cool way to play with all the different layers. And the BTS change we called out here was that he's going from unequipped to equipped, because Abigail said what is going to move us along that global value spectrum? What's going to help him be more equipped to survive or more able to survive or less, and in this case, getting the supplies and going to Hogwarts.

Speaker 2: 12:28

Yeah, and just look at that Like, ultimately, what is this question doing? It's answering why this scene matters.

Speaker 1: 12:34

And it's answering.

Speaker 2: 12:35

I need to look at Savannah's write up for this. Why does this matter for this? Why does this matter internally and why does it matter externally? We've had an external question, we've had an internal question and now we're marrying the two right, Right, and then you're choosing your value shift based on that global value spectrum. So where are we in that? Un-equipped to equipped? Notice, it is not saying life to death, death to life, any of those, but it affects it, Right? We like to say and this is one of the greatest things that gave me freedom and analyzing, I was super spiraled and then I felt like I had to literally write down life or death and I realized the word was shackling me from really my understanding of what the value change could be.

Speaker 2: 13:14

Unequipped to equipped, we can argue. Being equipped is going to help you preserve your life, right? So just don't overthink the words that you pick for the value change. Just make sure that they make sense, right and like. Sometimes we don't even pick a single word. You'll notice, in the analysis story we describe something. So it's like I just I think that like, that was something for me. When I first started analyzing stories with masterworks, I really felt restricted in what I had to do with the words and then I realized, like wait, I don't have to just pick one single word. And again, it's not unequipped to equipped. You might have a different value change in your mind of what the scene can do, but can you argue still that it impacts the life or death value spectrum? If the answer to that is yes, then you're moving in a better way of, I think, analyzing the scene in order to determine if it has value or not in the story.

Speaker 1: 14:05

Yeah, and you'll see, like Abigail said, we kind of left our versions of, like, some scenes. We might have three options for what describes a value shift, and it's because we couldn't pick. We, because we couldn't pick. We want to show you that we don't have the perfect answers, and it's okay, because we all get to that same conclusion and that's what helps us write a story. So these are the three. There's still one more because we want to kind of synthesize all this and bring it together, what we're going to put on the spreadsheet. Let me click ahead to the next one here.

Speaker 2: 14:32

There we go. Fourth question is the scene event synthesis? Here we go. Fourth question is the scene event synthesis? So what story event sums up the scenes on the surface about the surface change? Imagine. This says if you were to say what the log line is for this scene, what is that sentence? Go ahead, savannah.

Speaker 1: 14:49

Yeah. So here we said Harry and Hagrid visit Diagon Alley this is the OTS on the surface to purchase school supplies and Harry grows more insecure about his place in the wizarding world. That kind of wraps up the ATS on the surface to purchase school supplies and Harry grows more insecure about his place in the wizarding world. That kind of wraps up the ATS right. His goal or objective is to get school supplies. He's feeling insecure about it and then, especially, he's growing more insecure especially after visiting Ollivanders. So it grabs all three of those things and shows what's the core bit of the scene, why is it important, why does it matter? And, like Abigail said, this is what we put on the spreadsheet if you're using one, so it is a log line for your scene. It's the most succinct way you can show why it matters and how it does more than one thing too, which is really cool.

Speaker 2: 15:30

And, as book coaches, we know that writing this sentence is hard. Okay, yes, it's hard for us too. It's hard for us too. This is an over 6 000 word scene. It is hard to sum up everything crucial to basically describing the point of this story, this point of the scene in this story, in one sentence. Right, look, when you're doing this, I always say, just write long and edit down, but when you can do it in one sentence, this essentially. Now you know that you're probably on track with the scene because you've simplified something complex, right, and I want to determine purpose, right, yeah, and that whole thing is, it's about purpose. So, using those ATS, ots, ats, bts as a combination is a way for you to help make the hard decision and take out the words that don't need to exist in the sentence.

Speaker 1: 16:18

Yeah, and, like we talked about in one of the previous videos, Tim mentioned in one of the scenes he was missing something exciting on the surface level. So he had a bunch of stuff that, as the author, he knew it was important to you know, put pressure on his protagonist to grow and change in that scene and he knew why it was important. But he read back through it and he realized that maybe for a first time reader who doesn't know where the story is going, they're not going to find it exciting. So these different perspectives are a great editing tool and I think both Abigail and I would agree You're not going to have all of these things figured out when you write a first draft. It's really more of that editing magic.

Speaker 2: 16:53

So just something to keep in mind. Right, and this is a lot easier to write this sentence because that scene is existing, like exists in a published work. Right, that has been edited over and over and over again.

Speaker 1: 17:04

And because we know the whole story. It would be very hard to say what is the actual purpose without knowing the whole story.

Speaker 1: 17:10

Yeah, very true, just some things to keep in mind. And now we wanted to run you through where we landed. So, after we went through and did that analysis, where did we land with the five commandments for this scene? So again, what's his objective? Right, they want to go get school supplies and they're going to go to Diagon Alley.

Speaker 1: 17:27

So the first bit of conflict that gets in the way is witches and wizards in the Leaky Cauldron recognize Harry and they're like welcome back, we love you. All this stuff, right? So it's not expected by Harry at all. So it's conflict that starts to put pressure on that internal piece where he's like oh, everyone expects these things of me and I don't even know what the wizarding world is yet. But then there's a bunch of progressive complications, which we will look at in a second, and the turning point happens when Mr Ollivander says the world can expect great things from you, especially now that you have the brother to Voldemort's wand. So it's confirmed, all these worries that Harry has. Mr Ollivander is like yeah, the world's going to expect you to be a pretty darn good wizard. So Harry faces a best bad choice decision. Do you want to explain what best bad choice is, abigail? So best bad choice.

Speaker 2: 18:15

No matter what choice you pick, it's a negative result. Right, so there can be a reconcilable goods decisions. It's not the case in this scene. That's the inverse of the best bad choice. That means that both options are good, but usually it actually impacts the third party what your choice is. But in this case, no matter what Harry chooses, even if he doesn't choose something, it's going to result in a negative consequence or it's going to be a tough thing.

Speaker 1: 18:39

So his choice here specifically is is he going to go through with his decision to go to Hogwarts? And will he, because he's already decided that so, is he going to go through with it and risk disappointing himself and the rest of the wizarding world? So this seems kind of added a layer onto that decision.

Speaker 2: 19:01

Or is he going to let his fears and insecurities win and end up back at his miserable life with the Dursleys? So either way.

Speaker 1: 19:05

He's facing discomfort either way. And his decision? We know he shares his fears with Hagrid and he decides that he is going to go through with his choice. So the resolution here is that he's still nervous, but technically he's ready, he has all the school supplies he's accomplished. Here is that he's still nervous, but technically he's ready, he has all the school supplies. He's accomplished that goal. He's ready to go to Hogwarts. So he heads to the Dursleys and he spends the rest of the summer there. So that's the result of everything that has happened.

Speaker 1: 19:30

So let's see what did I put here? Oh, and this is the climax of the beginning, hook right. So he's already decided to go to Hogwarts in the last chapter. But his decision wavers because now he's exposed to the world and they expect things from him. So, luckily for Harry, he's courageous and by the end of the scene he commits again to that future that's awaiting him at Hogwarts. So this is where we landed. And I just know there's going to be people that read through it and they're like but what about all the smaller moments in the scene? Because he goes to Gringotts, he meets Draco Malfoy, right, and he goes to Ollivanders. He does all of this stuff. So that's what we wanted to take you through, because it threw us for a loop too, and we feel pretty good about where we landed.

Speaker 2: 20:20

So anything to add there before we dive in abigail the amount of times that we have read, changed this analysis, read this scene and change this analysis. I just can't even express how many times it was. And I say that to let you know that you were not alone.

Speaker 2: 20:31

And when you analyze, the answer, not him, and eventually you just start to make your decisions based on your best opinion about how the scene moves and changes. So we're going to explain, like, where we are, but, yes, like we have a lot to explain and defend, why we think this one scene instead of multiple scenes, which I'm sure multiple people probably are thinking it is, and maybe it's like to you out there who thinks this is multiple scenes. There is no wrong or right to this. There is how you defend this, right. Yeah, and we have evolved our definition of scene, which we've explained in a previous video with Sam in a previous interview. That, I think, allowed us some freedom and understanding purpose of movement, but that might not be how you like to analyze scenes. For us, this was a tool that helped us really understand why we thought this scene had purpose with me and also understanding how the details that were preserved in the scene are extremely important in work.

Speaker 1: 21:37

Work is door, yeah, so let's get into it because it's going to be fun. We've been very excited to do this video, so we like to start at the beginning of the scene, right. So remember, his objective is to get school supplies at Diagon Alley. So to do that, in the first part of the scene, harry and Hagrid they travel to Diagon Alley. So they leave that shack out at sea where Hagrid showed up and said you're a wizard, and all that stuff. And they travel to London.

Speaker 1: 22:04

And what happens during this travel is we learn a lot of important world building details, such as there's this thing called the Daily Prophet that is the primary source of news for witches and wizards. We learn there's a ministry of magic that governs the wizarding world. We know dragons exist and they guard Gringotts, which Hagrid says it makes it super dangerous to try and rob, and also that Hagrid really wants a dragon. He's already talking about dragons. So we learn all this stuff. We also this is the piece of the scene that establishes the scene goal to purchase school supplies.

Speaker 1: 22:38

Now, at the very end of this moment, when they're kind of landing in London from the dock or whatever, there's a part where you could infer that Harry might want to keep asking Hagrid questions about the wizarding world, but ultimately chooses not to, because Hagrid's reading a newspaper. And maybe we could say in his past the Dursleys have yelled at him for interrupting or something, but that's, we would be inferring it because none of it's on the page. So when we were looking at this, we're like, well, there's not really a crisis here. It's not really like Harry thinks there's something to lose or gain or risk if he asks Hagrid for more information. So we kept looking. We're like, ok, well, let's find that crisis.

Speaker 2: 23:22

Then we move into the next piece. But before I go there, do you want to say anything about this? Just that, pay attention if you want to look at. We're not going to go into extreme detail on this, but this diagon alley is an another early accident example of when maybe it doesn't have a crisis, but the line level, the details of learning the world, are really valuable. So you'll notice and and learning characters as well, like this particular part with Gringotts. I don't have it up.

Speaker 2: 23:41

I had the book here, but I'm not going to spend time searching for the pages just yet, but look for it the description of when Hagrid is pulling out Harry's key for the ball, and it describes all the things he's pulling out of his pockets. Yeah, what's the purpose of pulling out all those crazy details? Because it defines Hagrid as a character, right, almost like that exercise of when you're writing characters what would they have in their purse or their bag? Only they're actually putting it, like Rawlings, actually putting it on the page. But it's because what Hagrid keeps in his pockets is funny, right?

Speaker 2: 24:11

We also learn how the currency works, and that is a layer of world building. We understand that galleons are the most valuable of the coins and then we have sickles and nuts, right? I think that basically, like you're learning how many is in each Do you need to know that information and understand currency to a political level or an economic level in order for us to really enjoy the wizarding world? No, but we learn that Harry has a lot of money and, yeah, it's going to be something that is going to be valuable in understanding his relationship with Ron and some insecurities that Ron has, but how Harry is very humble and we'll see that actually progress even more when we're going to run into Draco, who's not going to be named but we know is Draco later in the scene yeah, and so we pull out all these little details and explanations in the actual masterwork guide.

Speaker 1: 25:02

But yeah, let's get into the next little piece here, because you're stealing my thunder there, abigail, sorry. So so after we land, harry and Hagrid, they go through the leaky cauldron and what happens here? So they every witch and wizard, including Professor Quirrell, recognizes them. They're welcoming him back, right, people recognize him, which starts to escalate that internal conflict which was started here where they were on the boat. Because Harry's already realizing there's so much I don't know and he's thinking I don't know if I have money. That's like the first thing he wakes up thinking so this internal conflict is there. And then this really punches it up. Right, everyone expects things of me, but there's not a tough decision for Harry, so it's just something he's reacting to and the internal conflict is escalating. He's already nervous, but this is the first time he's coming face to face with strangers who have expectations of him from a night he doesn't even remember. So what we're doing is escalating the internal conflict here.

Speaker 1: 25:59

Then this is where Abigail stole my thunder. They go to Greengoth and they get Harry's money. We learn about the money. Hagrid withdraws a mysterious package which piques Harry's curiosity about it, so he doesn't face a crisis here either. Again, there's a spot where you could infer maybe Harry's thinking I want to know more about that, but I shouldn't ask adults questions where you could infer maybe Harry's thinking I want to know more about that, but I shouldn't ask adults questions. You could infer that, but we don't really know. That's how Harry's feeling, because it's not on the page via his interiority. So that's one thing. The other thing is his goal is still the same, or his objective. So they're still. They need money to get school supplies. So it's a tactic or like a they need to do this first to accomplish their goal. It's a stepping stone, okay. So now we're moving into.

Speaker 1: 26:42

Harry goes to madam malkin's robe shop. He's alone because hagrid, nauseous after the green gots cart ride, and this is where he meets that unnamed character which we knows, draco, who he instantly dislikes. And harry does face a crisis here. So, uh, draco insults Hagrid and it's kind of like do I stand up for Hagrid and make this kid mad and make an enemy, or do I side with the kid and betray my new friend Hagrid? So there is a crisis, but the crisis isn't strong enough to create a value shift in the scene. Like Abigail said, he's unnamed, so we don't really know who he is. We're going to meet him later more officially, but this interaction to me is more about establishing that tension between Harry and Draco that's going to become the foundation for everything else between them in the book and the series, and it's a little preview of Harry choosing good Hagrid over evil slash Malfoy and that actually the setup for Harry's character, which pays off a bunch of times in the story and things like that.

Speaker 2: 27:43

So anything to add here, abigail yeah, so with I am with you, 100% behind that. And about establishing Harry and Draco. Just to reiterate, ruby versus book, because I don't know which one you're most familiar with this didn't even exist in the movie. Right, it's a preview to the scene that does have a crisis with Draco, where Draco extends his hand and says I'll help you there, find the best friends, find the lot that you should side with. And I think that what's interesting about that is like, why include this here as well, in Diagon Alley, when you're going to have a larger scale of it a little bit later?

Speaker 2: 28:23

And what I think is when you go into a crisis, for this scene in particular, yes, there is a crisis but, like you're saying, it doesn't necessarily create the value shift, instinctive in defending Hagrid, that while there are consequences to making enemies with Draco or not, they're not really existing in this scene, the Diagon Alley scene as a whole, in this moment, in this scene in the way that they are later, when he defines Draco as his enemy by his choice.

Speaker 2: 28:55

So it's like here there's like disagreement, but Draco's kind of feeling Harry out, harry's feeling Draco out and he defends Hagrid, but not necessarily I've now made an enemy. It's more butted heads and we're disagreeing, like Draco's saying his snotty things. I think it also is a way in the book, because remember that in a book you don't have the advantage that a movie has, where you have the actors and you have the music that's going to emphasize the dangerous characters and the bad relationship, things like that. And I think by having this moment in Diagon Alley, what it does is it gives us that sense of ick around Draco, mainly because and also it's going to really foil with Diagon Alley- Ron later.

Speaker 2: 29:49

So it's going to. It's really going to clash that's a better word. It's really going to clash with Ron later, who is so humble, who would never be in a first encounter with someone talking about. We shouldn't be letting muggles who are now witches and wizards into the wizarding world, like it's just so opposite and we see it immediately. How harry is, that is not how I align myself and it's not how I define, uh, what I find valuable and what I find meaningful in my life. So his immediate reaction to defending hagrid, while it could come with consequences, I don't think harry really cares right and it don't know in the moment that you don't need to have a crisis determined by whether or not a character cares or not, because that's not how you define a crisis. But it does just show that we're setting up something or foreshadowing something, necessarily than making it the purpose of the diagonality.

Speaker 1: 30:46

Yeah, and we're going to talk about this at the end. But think about if the goal from my perspective is the author, make my character insecure this moment with draco, who he knows everything. He's a snotty know-it-all and he's like, oh, you don't know, you don't have a house preference and harry debate. Am I going to ask him about this? Am I going to not ask him about that? Am I going to keep quiet?

Speaker 2: 31:06

it's a great tool to make harry more insecure which it does do that, and why did you point it out? Because I thought about that when I was rereading it this morning. Yeah, he feels increasingly dumb, yeah, like, especially when he mentions Quidditch.

Speaker 1: 31:19

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 31:19

And that's he has to pack right about those things later.

Speaker 1: 31:22

Yes. So think about how we're going through these little micro moments. And it's like his goal is to get the school supplies. It's also internally we said he wants to figure out where he belongs, he wants to figure out the wizarding world. So these little micro moments is he's accomplishing that surface level goal of getting school supplies and he's not accomplishing that goal. In a way he is like he's learning more but it's making him very insecure, that internal space. So just really interesting to look at.

Speaker 1: 31:48

So if we keep going, the next thing that happens is they reconvene and then there's a summary where they gather a bunch of other stuff An owl, a cauldron, I think, some other things. This is where Harry learns about the schoolhouses. Hagrid says even Voldemort was in Slytherin or something. So further associating that house with the unnamed boy, with evil and things like that we learn about. Let's see, this is where Hagrid delivers that line. There is not a single witch or wizard who went bad. That wasn't in Slytherin. So we're getting the lay of the land here and let's see. So there's so much. Harry doesn't know by this point that his internal conflict is. You can start feeling it on the page when you read it. He's getting really nervous. But there's no crisis here and the goal is the same. They're still hunting for supplies. At the end they say we have one stop left and that's get your wand. So that's where we're headed.

Speaker 1: 32:37

Next we go to Ollivander's, where he delivers a line the wizarding world can expect great things, which really cements what Harry's been worried about. He's like I feel weird about this. And now Ollivander's saying yeah, the world will expect great things from you, so he's even more secure of this because of this. And then he faces the scene crisis here. So he doesn't have, or it triggers the scene crisis. There's no crisis in the moment with Ollivander. There's nothing he needs to decide to help him get his supplies or go to school. It's just kind of Ollivander's talking at me I'm getting my wand, and this is the scene turning point because it triggers the scene crisis. So the scene crisis happened after it's, ollivander said this out loud to me I've gotten my school supplies. Is it worth me committing to this and going into the unknown, even though it's clear I'm not really ready for it? So after this this, they leave diagram alley, going back the way they came. He expresses his concerns to hagrid.

Speaker 1: 33:37

The scene crisis and climax and resolution occur here. So harry decides yes, I'm going to move forward, I'm going to tap into that courage and do the original plan of going to hogwarts. So what's cool here is we can say, okay, so all of this has helped. Like we said, show that that VTF change, or that beneath the surface, beyond the surface change, we're going from unequipped to equipped, which helps survival. We're also establishing the starting point of his character arc. So he's gone from, he's insecure about his place in the world and that he's going to be battling with in addition to the external conflict throughout the entire story.

Speaker 2: 34:14

I think that you're doing a great job. It's just that, looking at that, unequipped to equipped, ignorance to knowledge, notice that we pulled out the global internal and the global external and I think, ultimately, going back to that way of, can you defend, if the scene has purpose, be able to argue why it does both right and so the way we look at the scene, if we go back to let me find that slide where we looked at the five commandments, if we go back to it, it's kind of like we're going again.

Speaker 1: 34:42

The objective is to get school supplies. The internal objective for harry is he wants to figure out what's going on in the world, how he fits in, and all this stuff, all those individual micro moments, help him achieve the objective. So he gets the school supplies and they put pressure on that wound which creates this very nice starting point for the internal character arc, abigail. Is it wrong if we've analyzed this as each individual scene? Talk to me about that.

Speaker 2: 35:09

I don't think it's, because my answer to that is when you ever say wrong or right, I'm always going to say no because I don't when and we come to anything with subjectivity, there's no right or wrong. It's about how can you best defend, how are you going to make sense of writing your own stories by analyzing other stories, and how is that going to help you see when a scene has value or not right, ultimately, at Ultimately? At that same time, I think that as a book coach and Savannah and I have talked about this outside of this interview as a book coach, I might be looking at this and if you were to give me these scenes, I probably would challenge you a bit and I'd say can you have a clearer crisis in these so that we can get it down more to the 2000 word potato chip scene length, and is there any value in condensing this and having value changes and goals changed throughout the scene? Your answer to that might be no and I'm I'm going to be more curious and ask you why and there's no right or wrong to that answer. I just want to hear why you think yes or no and why I think yes or no, and we provide both of our opinions on the table and you make the best decision based on that conversation. Right?

Speaker 2: 36:23

And this is Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. This is, I believe the scene works. I believe the story is beautiful. It is one of my favorite stories of all time. I think it's foolish to argue that the story does not done its job on working as a story. Right, it's obviously a phenomenon. At the same time, it is the first book that JK Rowling wrote, so I just want to emphasize that through our analysis, I think, analyzing particularly the banished on Harry Potter and Sorcerer's Stone, I'm the writer of Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets. For the analysis of that one, I found one and two much more difficult to analyze on condensing into scenes than seven, which is another one that I'm doing, and looking at four, five, six and the ban is looked at three more than I have with Prisoner of Azkaban. So I think it's just.

Speaker 2: 37:14

I think naturally, writers become stronger as writers the more books that you write, and Rowling is a masterful writer from book one. At that same time, I'm sure that when you look at something like five, six, seven, the strength of the writing at least even just like the implicit knowledge of understanding pace and things like that probably feels a bit stronger and at least like for me, I felt like it was a bit stronger. The further that you get which makes total sense, right the more time that you spend writing, the more natural this pace is, shifting scenes and changing them and be more definitive of the goals, in a way. Here's like the trick is like in a way that we're not glaringly putting it in the face of the reader, it's just existing, because it's magically existing and we're moving with it on an entertainment and emotional level. Right, and you're just going to get better with that.

Speaker 2: 38:10

So, when I'm looking at Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone, does the scene work? Yes, I think it does. Is there maybe if I were to look at this and get really nitpicky and I could say are there opportunities where we might have been able to tighten certain areas? Possibly? I don't know, that doesn't exist, right, that version doesn't exist.

Speaker 2: 38:30

I do think that you can look at films and you're looking at, oh, like, why would the film make certain choices on certain scenes? And film scenes tend to be a lot tighter for a lot of the reasons that I said earlier about how, when you have a film, you don't have to do all the things that a book has to do. The iceberg theory, where the film is above the surface and the books below the surface, is real because a book has a lot more job, has a lot more roles in helping the reader visualize and experience the scene and the story than the film, because the film has other players who are working, just the text, right. Yeah, so I think like ultimately to that answer. My long-winded answer to your question is just that when you're looking at this yeah, like there's a always a place where maybe you can say we could have done things differently can you still get to the argument and be able to defend does this thing work and why it works? And the answer to that is yes, then you've done your job right.

Speaker 1: 39:23

And if you think we sound like a broken record. It's because we see this hold people up so much that we want to be a broken record. There's not really a wrong answer. We're all going to look at things differently based on our own experience, and even Abigail and I people ask us all the time do you guys agree on everything? Or like, how does that work? We disagree on things a lot and what we're trying to see is, at the very end result do we understand the same takeaway from what we're doing? And in most cases we do. It doesn't matter what value shift she calls out or if I call it ignorance, knowledge, and she says audit insecurity. We're getting to the same place. So it's really cool. But one thing I want to say before we wrap up. I get this question.

Speaker 1: 40:00

A lot is like writers I'm just pulling this example up on screen. We want to write a scene where there's like a lot of these little kind of stops on our way to accomplish the scene objective. You might start writing a book where maybe we have six scenes quote-unquote, of a scene like Diagon Alley where we're going to these stops and and what? We broke this into individual scenes at one point too, and we started seeing that the goal hasn't changed. So, yes, he's getting an owl in the scene, yes, he's getting a wand in the scene, but overall we're getting school supplies, and you might see that in your story too.

Speaker 1: 40:37

So you might start out writing six of these with the same crisis and the same goal and the same type of value shift, and you might say, oh, these are progressive complications within a scene instead of being one scene each. So that's how we landed here. Is we started realizing, oh, they're progressing his insecurity and also they're stepping stones on his way to getting his supplies and closing out that scene objective? So that's how we got here. And again, that's not a first draft thing. So if you write six scenes that are like this, it's not wrong. You just might find in editing that they're not actually six scenes. We don't need to spend six scenes in Diagon Alley or somewhere like it. They're more just like progressive complications within a scene.

Speaker 1: 41:17

So I just wanted to bring that up because writers are very concerned about the micro moment in a first draft and I think we need to be easier on ourselves.

Speaker 2: 41:26

Yes, yeah, and I could go over that just to support that, because I see that all the time you like, when you're writing a plan for a book, you're only looking at that big plot level, that story event synthesis. Ultimately, there are going to be details in the scene itself and I think that when you look at the Diagon Alley scene yes, to emphasize the world building and the character moments, again, the details that rolling spends time on have purpose.

Speaker 2: 41:56

There's a reason why professor coral gets a lot more name and attention during the leak cauldron scene and why actually harry names professor pearl again along with olivander at the end, because she, hey, this one's going to be more important than others, right? So there are little clues like that. So when you're an author and you're making choices in description and what you keep as details, just make sure that they have value. Most of Diagon Alley is equipping again the end with equipped unequipped to equipped. Right. We're equipping Harry with tools. We're going to get Hedwig. We don't spend a ton of detail and time on Hedwig. We know it's a snowy owl, but it's important that we get Hedwig right, right, and I think that it's just like when you're spending time on the Ollivander scene, like part of the scene. We spend a lot of time in there and there's a reason for that and the reason for that even speaks to a greater level than just this book.

Speaker 2: 42:56

So I think it's just important that when you're making choices with description just always be looking like final edits, right mind level edits what did you choose to keep and why and how is there value in that? But when you're starting out in these earlier drafts, we're thinking goals, right goals and internal stakes being raised, and how are you beating the goal and how is that moving the external stakes and challenging external stakes, and how are the internal stakes being challenged within those external confinements?

Speaker 1: 43:28

yeah, and a little behind the scenes of our own process, is we at one point we looked at each other and we were like how would we tell a writer to write this kind of scene? And we looked at each other in silence like I don't know. And so that's what started this conversation of what would we do if we were coaching JK Rowling which could you imagine? But we were coaching her and she wanted to write the scene and we might Abigail and I agreed like we might just say, write it as five or six scenes and then we'll see what happens. So sometimes you do need to just get it on the page and we would probably coach writers as if these were scenes. But then in the editing we would condense them and say, really, what we're doing here is we're complicating that internal arc of the scene and make decisions based on that.

Speaker 1: 44:12

So is this the answer for every scene? No, you might have. For example, if let's pretend we deleted everything but Gringotts and Ollivanders, if we just had those two scenes. And we do have a lot of conflict in each scene, but we don't have crisis moments really. So if we were coaching a writer through those two moments and they were two separate scenes, we would say can we build out the crisis moments, like, how do we make these different so that they read as something enjoyable and engaging instead of just more of the same? So we're not saying this is the answer for every scene. We don't want you to combine everything into one big scene every time you're faced with this, but just some things to think about which I think are helpful.

Speaker 2: 44:52

So Madame Mouth's scene with Draco. How is that scene different than the scene later? Right? When he has to make the choice like how is it a bigger crisis than it was before? And maybe that's why there's not really a crisis that we see in that moment before because would it be redundant, would it feel redundant?

Speaker 1: 45:11

And we had the same thing later. Right, it's exactly what you said, too is there is no need for immediate consequences in Diagon Alley, because that's not what that moment is about. There's so many levers and things that you're going to need to pull and reevaluate your own story. So we hope that by showing you this breakdown and talking through how we look at it, it makes it less scary and less overwhelming to know that, like you, don't have to get this on your first draft. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 45:36

And you're not going to get out in your first draft. You're going to be lucky if you do Just accept that you don't have to right.

Speaker 1: 45:40

Yeah, and we don't. We wouldn't want you or coach you to to plan to this detail either. If you think this feels overwhelming and I can't do this, you're not alone. We wouldn't expect you to do it either. So just remember, this is why revisions are so important, and you can only do so much on your first draft. So just a caveat to throw out there, because, honestly, we've been there too. Studying this book makes us we want to write books like this too. It's overwhelming, but hopefully easier once you see our breakdown and see how all the moving parts work together easier. Once you see our breakdown and see how all the moving parts work together, it can become less overwhelming and more fun because you have the tools to play with.

Speaker 1: 46:17

Okay, so I hope you enjoyed that deep dive into chapter five of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone and if you liked this episode, you will absolutely love my new book, the Story Grid Masterwork Analysis Guide to Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone, because we break down the entire story on a scene-by-scene basis and so much more. I'm so proud of this book and I hope you will check it out. At the time of this recording, I'm offering a handful of bonuses with proof of purchase. So, yes, for the price of one book, you will get so much more than just a book, and if you want to see what I'm talking about, you can go to savannagilbocom forward slash masterwork to get all the juicy details. So that's it for today's episode.

Speaker 1: 46:59

As always, thank you so much for tuning in and for showing your support. If you want to check out any of the links I mentioned in this episode, you can find them in the show notes listed in the description of each episode inside your podcast player or at savannahgilbocom forward slash podcast. If you're an Apple user, I'd really appreciate it if you took a few seconds to leave a rating and a review. Your ratings and reviews tell Apple that this is a podcast that's worth listening to, and, in turn, your reviews will help this podcast get in front of more fiction writers just like you. And while you're there, go ahead and hit that follow button, because there's going to be another brand new episode next week, full of actionable tips, tools and strategies to help you become a better writer. So I'll see you next week and until then, happy writing.