What I think Harry Potter does because it is a shallow learning curve and because it crosses middle grade into YA is that the world is complicated I'll say that first, right and it gets really complicated as Harry ages. So when Savannah says that these books help teach her about death, I really am drawn to stories about grief in any way. I've had a lot of grief in my life about grief in any way. I've had a lot of grief in my life and I think that you're aging with Harry in a way that it's confusing and you're struggling with it at different levels and different complexities as you go through each story.

Welcome to the Fiction Writing Made Easy podcast. My name is Savannah Gilbo, and I'm here to help you write a story that works. I want to prove to you that writing a novel doesn't have to be overwhelming, so each week, I'll bring you a brand new episode with simple, actionable and step-by-step strategies that you can implement in your writing right away. So whether you're brand new to writing or more of a seasoned author looking to improve your craft, this podcast is for you. So pick up a pen and let's get started. This podcast is for you. So pick up a pen and let's get started.

In today's episode, I'm sharing part of an interview that Abigail K Perry and I did with Tim Grawl, the CEO of StoryGrid, to talk about our new book, the StoryGrid Masterwork Analysis Guide to Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone, and at the time this episode airs, it is officially available for pre-order, which is super exciting, especially because I'm giving away a handful of bonuses with purchase. I will tell you more about those at the end of this episode, but if you want to check them out now, you can go to savannahgilbocom forward slash masterwork and I will put that link in the show notes. Now, in this conversation, tim is interviewing Abigail and I about our new book and I say our book because, technically, I was the author of the book and Abigail was my editor, but at this point it's a labor of love on both of our parts and we've both been so involved. So it really is our book. And in this interview, tim asks us questions like why the heck did we choose to spend so much time reading, rereading and analyzing every single scene and every single page of this book?

Because it is a labor-intensive process. So we talk about that. And then we talk about what these books mean to each of us, so why we wanted to study this first book in the series in particular, why we think it was a mega bestseller and what we gained from this whole process. So it's a really fun episode, a little different than what you're used to, maybe, but I think you'll really enjoy it. So let's go ahead and dive right into the conversation.

All right. So as we get started here in this conversation, I don't think people a lot of times when they think about the kind of analysis we do at StoryGrid and what goes into this, like how deep dive it is and how long it takes and how much effort goes into it and it's not like writing kind of any other type of book. I don't think, and so I wanted to hear from both of you first, just what is it about Harry Potter that made you think, okay, this is worth spending this much time going, basically word by word, through this entire book, Like what inspires? What about Harry Potter? Inspires that kind of due diligence on the book?

Yeah, and it is no joke. So it is a project that can last as long as you let it last, but for me, Harry Potter. So I was 11 when the first book came out. Harry was also 11. So I literally grew up with Harry, which was really fun and I had.

I was always a voracious reader, but I was reading a lot of adult fantasy, adult horror, adult sci-fi, and this was the first time I saw a kid my own age doing really cool things. So that was really special for me. And then, as the series continued, Harry faced things that I was dealing with like a lot of death. I dealt with a lot of death as a teen and in my early 20s and my parents weren't quite equipped to help me deal with that. So Dumbledore, McGonagall, Hagrid, Lupin, Sirius they became my mentors, and watching Harry as a young person my own age deal with stuff like that was pretty instrumental in how I dealt with it and how I became the human I am today. So to say it holds a special place in my own heart is an understatement. Also, you'll see soon that Abigail and I are huge Harry Potter nerds still. So that's me.

Yeah, I am seconding all of that. We're right in the same age group and when these came out, these were really the books that I read. So my background is film and I have always loved film, have always been, you know, enraptured by movies. But Harry Potter was the book series that I read so much, so many times in a row. When mom said and dad said to go to bed, I was up hours with the flashlight underneath the covers with Harry Potter and to the point where my mom was like, abby, you need to read other books. And I was like, but these are the ones I love. I want to read these again.

The funny story in my household was that when Order of the Phoenix was coming out, I was flying out to see my grandma in Indiana and I was insistent that I had to pack all horror books in my suitcase so I could read them the week of. So at the end of the week when it was released, at midnight when I was there, I could read all four, and my parents didn't know that I packed all four books, and Goblet of Fire is a heavy book, so of course my suitcase was over the weight limit and they were like why is your suitcase over 50 pounds. Now we have to pay this extra money. My dad is like, un, I'm the thing, my suitcase. He opens it up and he's like, yeah, you have four giant books in your suitcase. You're not going to read these this week, but I was insistent that we needed to pay the extra money so I could bring my books, because Kindle was not a thing back then and I have always loved it. I love it for the characters and I love it for the action, and we're talking about a story of ultimate good and evil and that has always been something that I'm drawn to. That is something that I feel is rooted in my being meaning in life about how can we be the best versions of ourselves and watching someone my age struggle with what it is to balance good and evil and to embrace darkness with new, but make choices in order to be the best versions of yourselves and to fight for others in order to protect family, protect calm and sacrifice, and making those sacrifices out of love and ultimately, like the root of the story is love making choices, choices for love and light.

And some people love Star Wars and that good and evil story and for me it was Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter, and those were just the core belief of existence to me and, being the fun of that, of course, the school setting. Who wouldn't want to go to Hogwarts? I'm still waiting for my letter. And just the fun and the magic of it. It just spoke to me on such a human level. And and just the fun and the magic of it. It just spoke to me on such a human level. And friendship, loyalty, courage, those are things that I strive to be in my life and I know that I will fail at them constantly, but those are core in my belief of what can be a good way to live, to be a good human being. And, yeah, there are great examples of that.

So I have no problem spending hours and hours in these pages. I will never fall out of love with these books and it's a hold up and experience. Analyzing it as a masterwork, you'll see, but I think part of the fun that Sven and I have had with the masterwork guide analysis is that we are still learning something every time we return to it. And we're talking about Sven and I are super nerds here, so we have read these books every year, maybe multiple times a year since they were published, and we were there from the beginning and we're going to be there until the day I die. And I think that it is just. It's mind-blowingly fascinating to me that I learn something new every time I return to these books. That book is special. There's something about that book. If I can learn something new every time I return to these book, that book is special. There's something about that book. If I can learn something new every time I return and we're talking 20 plus years every time I return to it. Okay, we're talking about a masterwork here.

Yeah, and you're going to die, abigail, because we've never talked about the airport story. But I have almost exactly the same story. But I was with a friend's family and they made me unpack the suitcase and they were like, what do we do with you? And we were going to Costa Rica when Order of the Phoenix came out. So I remember reading the scene when Dumbledore died and it was lightning and thundering around and there was like this big storm and I slammed the book and I was like I just could not believe it and then I didn't want to talk to anybody. And so I'm on vacation with my friend's family and they're like we're not big readers, what the heck's going on. So really funny, we have the same story and, speaking of reading the books, a billion times during the analysis I broke my copy. Finally it started coming apart in the middle and the pages were coming out.

So, yeah, it's dedication.

It means that it was loved, and I like to say Balmonteen Rabbit reference you made it real, I made it real, I made it real.

Yeah, that was loved.

You know it's funny, I didn't get into Harry Potter until they had been out a little bit, not till all of them had been out, but until the first few had been out a little bit. And I started reading them when I was in Cyprus. And so we're in, and it was northern Cyprus and so it's like pretty remote and rural there. And I remember the place we were staying didn't have internet and I had finished I forget which one. I'd finished one of them and I'm like I have to read the next one. I got to get started. There's no bookstores where I can get Harry Potter in northern Turkish Cyprus, so I ended up going. I had okay, so I had bought them, so they were at my house but I hadn't brought them because I didn't think I'd get this into it. I had a Kindle and so I walked up to this place. It was like the only place that had internet and I used Pirate Bay to download a pirated copy of them. So this was before they were on Kindle. So somebody had sat down and typed out the whole book. There were like mispronouncement and typos and like all this kind of stuff, but I'd managed to find a version that I could get on my Kindle so I could go back and like, actually keep reading the books. So I totally pirated them. I did pay for them. I had actual paper copies back at home but we couldn't take them all the way across the world. They're too big. That was like my story of like world. They're too big. That was like my story of like, okay, I have to keep reading these, I have to know what happens. And so I'm like up in this little coffee shop in Turkish Cyprus Nobody understands English there and I'm like pirating these books so I can get them on my Kindle so I can read them.

So I think what's interesting about your perspectives? You hear so much about people that love Harry Potter and have loved it since they were children and it means so much to them in a lot of what you said. But now that you've become so acquainted with the books because I was trying to think I was like I wonder if there's anybody other than JK Rowling that knows the books as well as you two do right now. Because I don't think anybody sat down and done the kind of word by word, sentence by sentence, analyzation of it. Because I don't think anybody sat down and done the kind of word by word, sentence by sentence analyzation of it.

So you know, the question is always why did these books like hit the market and become these crazy bestsellers over so many years, as opposed to all the other magic books and all the other fantasy books and even books based on kids there's lots of books that have each of those elements. So now that you've you like stepping out of what they meant to you personally and you've looked at them with this really logical hat on, what do you think is made these particular books and we're talking specifically about Philosopher's Stone or Sorcerer's Stone what do you think made them become what they were?

When Abigail and I talk about it, there's three main things we keep coming back to. One of them, of course, is characters, because Harry's the underdog that we all want to root for and we want him to succeed and have a better life and find love and belonging. But also there's kind of someone for everybody in the cast. So you know, we can relate to Harry, but we can also totally identify with Hagrid. I do because I love animals and I'm just as you know. I want my dogs to call me mummy, right, like he does. You can relate to the teacher of McGonagall, who's strict, and maybe the ones like in book two, professor Lockhart, who's he's goofy and silly, right, and so characters are a big deal. Animal characters too. I think they totally count.

So that's number one, characters, I think. Number two, of course, the world building. It's super immersive. You feel like you're there and also, as we study it, we realize every single little detail counts for something and to me, as someone who is world building for my own fantasy series, that's amazing and magical. And then, third, that we see is it weaves together the external plot and the internal character arc so dang well that you can't separate them. And so to us. We're like this is the most fascinating thing. We want to nerd out and figure out how to do this in our own writing, because we're both working on fiction stories and need to world build and stuff like that too.

Yeah, and to build off of that, that internal and external marriage is key for me, and Savannah and I talked about this how I think that Any true masterwork does this, and they're inseparable, because stories are about change, right? So we need to see character growth and we need to see plot development Two biggest things that you need to see in a story how you execute. That is where the magic is made. And I think when we look at characters because there is a giant cast in Harry Potter if you do the onstage characters in a chapter, you can get 20 plus characters in a chapter, but all of them have purpose and they all come into play as setups and payoffs in this like really unbelievable way, and when we say, no line is wasted. That is truly the case here. One thing about Harry Potter and this is also where I think you study as a masterwork you never, ever use this as a comparable title, and part of the reason for that is because and when I say comparable, like when you're pitching if you're pitching, don't use this comparable title because there is no next Harry Potter. I think that's the thing it's like. Harry Potter is its own thing now. It's a franchise, it's more than a book. But that doesn't mean we can't learn from it as a masterwork, and part of the reason for that is because we go from middle grade to YA, so very few times do you ever see a story actually cross categories within genre. And we do this successfully because we age with Harry.

Harry Potter is a shallow learning curve, meaning that we learn the world with Harry. That's my bread and butter. I love shallow learning curves because I think that I get to experience the story in a way that helps me just comprehend it more. Savannah she's a master in all fantasy and she can do the steep learning curve and the shallow learning curve For me. I'm just like. I like to take it step by step, although I enjoy some steep learning curves. But I'm going to gravitate more towards the shallow learning curve because I think I wrap my head around it more.

What I think Harry Potter does, because it is a shallow learning curve and because it crosses middle grade into YA, is that the world is complicated. I'll say that first. Right, and it gets really complicated as Harry ages. So when Savannah says that these books help teach her about death, I really am drawn to stories about grief in any way. I've had a lot of grief in my life and I think that you're aging with Harry in a way that it's confusing and you're struggling with it at different levels and different complexities as you go through each story and the way that you can deal with an internal story that allows someone to experience core human condition lesson in a coming-of-age arc but not have to dump everything at you in each book. You're able to handle the layers, the complexity of what life is and how it challenges you in different ways at different times at different age groups, because you get a taste of that each one.

There's a reason why we deal with Cedric Diggory dying in Cobal at a Fire and not dealing with death in Sorcerer's Stone. In Sorcerer's Stone we're dealing with, can you rise to the expectation of what society has just deemed you of in celebrity status and where do you fall on that? That's something that we can work with. And then, as you get into Chamber of Secrets, like the stakes being raised. That's something that I'm doing, chamber of Secrets, and one of my main focuses when I'm analyzing Chamber of Secrets is how do you raise the stakes? How do you get better at each book? You know, like for me it does. It succeeds every single time, and that's what I think is so magical, because it feels like we truly do just roll into. The next book has higher stakes. The next book has higher stakes. How does she level up the stakes every single time? And the plot twist and how she does it I know that when I was doing the debates and a sorcerer's stone.

If we're going to focus on Snape as a series as a whole, snape is one of my all-time favorite characters.

No one will ever be able to admit to me otherwise, and I remember being in it and being like is he good, is he bad, is he good, is he bad?

This is something that Disney does. That why I love, love Disney is that they can write a story and can speak to an older age group and a young age group at the same time, and I think that Harry Potter can do that, and that's why I love it and learn something different every time I read it, because I can understand McGonagall and I can understand Dumbledore in a way that I never would have been able to understand them at 11, at 15, at 20. So I think that's part of it. The characters are rich because we can understand perspectives and seeing what a character holds. Information from another can create conflict, but at the same time it shows you like who the character truly is and why secrets are kept and all that comes out. So the mystery plot is wild in all of these, despite it being an action story You're such a nerd about it and I love it, abigail.

So I know we're sticking to book one, but we did an experiment on our podcast where we were looking at the chapter one from E Terry Potter book and watching how she brought us back to a familiar place and raised the stakes and broadened the scope of the stakes and the conflict and it's super fascinating.

So someday, hopefully, we can do an episode about the series. We would all nerd out on that. But the other thing I think that makes the first Harry Potter book really interesting and successful is that there are multiple layers of stakes. So Harry has personal school kids stakes he wants to make friends and get sorted into the right house and things like that. Then there's dangerous stakes at school, like dragons that want to blow your head off and things like that in a forbidden forest and a corridor where there's a three headed dog. And then there's worldwide stakes which have to do more with Voldemort and things like that. But there's also multiple layers of conflict, which is super cool as well. So we have Draco, the school day bully, snape, the bullying teacher, and then all the way up to Quirrell, slash Voldemort, and it's amazing how she balances all of that.

I would like to just hear from both of you. If you were talking to a writer and you were like, okay, you should spend some time studying Harry Potter, right, like you should read our masterwork guide, you should spend some time. Yeah, you absolutely should. What would you tell them if you spend your time and effort doing this, spending a lot of time with this one book and understanding it deeply, like how is it going to make them a better writer? So I'd love to hear from both of you, like what you would tell a writer why they should spend so much time studying this particular book?

Yeah. So the selfish reason why I wanted to do this project is because I wanted to understand why I love this book, how I could write a book like this, and I used to feel very overwhelmed, very like no confidence. How I could write a book like this and I used to feel very overwhelmed, very like no confidence that I could do something as cool as this and who knows if I ever will. But I don't feel scared coming to my project anymore because I've seen the back end of how things work and that knowledge has empowered me to try things and to start with a draft that doesn't have everything tightly plotted or all the setups and payoffs figured out and all the characters equaling their final purpose or things like that. I think that was huge. For me is just understanding the mechanics, because that's how my brain works and that gives me more confidence.

I'll also say that it's interesting. I went back this morning and looked at our original like our very first draft and it maybe had two to four more scenes than where we landed and we've learned so much since then. So I thought it was interesting that on an instinctual level, I think we can feel things and like arcs of change and the scene, movement and character growth and things like that, because we're readers and we love story. But sometimes it's hard to explain why we're feeling that or to recreate it, and a book like this and tools like what StoryGrid has will give you the language to start figuring that out and to start actually crafting those things you instinctually feel.

Yeah, and that's the implicit, explicit knowledge. I think that's the big thing that masterworks for me is you can spend. I actually think that Rowling and I think Stephen King is another big author who they've said you can't teach writing, and I do disagree with that. I think that you can teach writing. I think that there is a talent level as well, but I think that ultimately, like the explicit and implicit knowledge, a lot of authors who have developed masterworks have implicit knowledge and when you mentioned earlier Savannah that Rollins, one of her biggest influences was Agatha Christie, I believe was one of her female authors and it makes sense that mystery is coming in her stories right For me.

I think selfishly writing masterworks, one of my favorite reasons to have done this project is collaboration, and I have said it since day one with my Harry Potter gurus who I've worked with. The friendship that I have built with those people is very special to me and that's like a whole different level. Also, I think that just being able to communicate the same language in order to understand how something is working or not working, like that, was key for me, getting out of my own head sometimes Because, like when you, when I've worked with Savannah back and forth, like you can spend a lot of time and authors do this just naturally because you're writing a book and only you can write your book. Even if you have a coach, even if you have an editor, only you can write the book. Right, and we can spend so much time in there. But I think over and over again, even when I work with clients, one of the most rewarding things of working with a coach or with an editor is that they say, like I'm finally being able to talk about it with someone. Right, that's why writing groups are so important, right, because you can finally talk about it with someone who gets it and only you can write that. But that's the thing with the masterwork guides is, then you have this resource where you can start to have a conversation and through conversation you can learn, you can grow. So that's where you can spend a lot of time analyzing one book. But I think that, more than that, take it the next step further and have a discussion about it with someone in your close corner, because there might be disagreements and that's not a bad thing, right? So I think that's where it's like really understanding it.

For me, it was gaining confidence. Honestly, I think that's the biggest thing I gained. I gained confidence and being able to say I believe that this is the change because dot dot dot, being able to to give the reason was then being able to communicate exactly what savannah pointed out the feeling we do feel things. It's why readers embrace stories from the foundation of just like watching or reading a story, whether or not they are gathering that implicit knowledge. But the writer who knows how to explicitly execute that is going to be able to write probably a lot more, write a lot more stories without as much grief or we're trying to like why am I writing this? And I think the masterwork guys did helped me with that, helped me gain that confidence to say I understand why I believe this scene has purpose on a plot level, on a character level and on a global level plus, they're just fun to read if you like a story.

So if you like Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone and if you want to see how and why it works, check out our Story Grid Masterwork Analysis Guide to Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. Like I mentioned earlier, it's officially available for pre-order right now. So if you want to snag your copy and a handful of limited-time bonuses, go to savannahgilbocom forward slash masterwork to get all the details. One of my favorite bonuses is that Abigail and I are hosting a two-hour live workshop and Q&A where we're going to take you through exactly how we analyze the climactic event of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. So you know the part where Harry and his friends navigate the tunnels under the school and ultimately come face to face with Voldemort in that final chamber. So we're going to talk through that, including lots of tips on how to write your own great climactic moment, and then we're going to open up the floor for Q&A so you can ask us anything about the book, the Harry Potter series or writing in general. It's going to be so much fun and, like I said, you can get all the details about that and the book and all the other bonuses at savannahgilbocom forward slash masterwork. So that's it for today's episode.

As always, thank you so much for tuning in and for showing your support. If you want to check out any of the links I mentioned in this episode, you can find them in the show notes listed in the description of each episode inside your podcast player or at savannahgilbocom forward slash podcast. If you're an Apple user, I'd really appreciate it if you took a few seconds to leave a rating and a review. Your ratings and reviews tell Apple that this is a podcast that's worth listening to and, in turn, your reviews will help this podcast get in front of more fiction writers just like you. And while you're there, go ahead and hit that follow button, because there's going to be another brand new episode next week, full of actionable tips, tools and strategies to help you become a better writer. So I'll see you next week and until then, happy writing.