Speaker 1: 0:50

And then I got a call about I don't know a month before I was going to publish and it was from a producer in LA and he wanted to make it a movie and shop it out to some big directors. And I didn't really believe it. But I called my agent at the time for the RxD agency and I said, hey, what's going on here? And we got on a call and started that whole process.

Speaker 2: 1:14

Welcome to the Fiction Writing Made Easy podcast. My name is Savannah Gilbo, and I'm here to help you write a story that works. I want to prove to you that writing a novel doesn't have to be overwhelming, so each week, I'll bring you a brand new episode with simple, actionable and step-by-step strategies that you can implement in your writing right away. So, whether you're brand new to writing or more of a seasoned author looking to improve your craft, this podcast is for you. So pick up a pen and let's get started. In today's episode, I have something really fun to share with you.

Speaker 2: 1:46

I sat down for a conversation with one of the writers I work with. His name is Edward J Symbol, and he's going to share his journey, from how he went from having an idea, starting to write a draft based on that idea and then walking away from that idea a month or so later to start a completely new project, and that project is his debut novel called the Monsters in Our Shadows. That is officially out in the world today, october 3rd. So you'll hear all about why he walked away from his first story and how he knew that the other idea that became his debut novel was the book that he wanted to write the one he wanted to pour himself into and spend all of his time on. You'll also hear about how we work together, including some of the deep work we had to do to get to the heart of Edward's protagonist, who is named Anthem.

Speaker 2: 2:28

I do want to mention a very light trigger warning for any of my listeners who are sensitive to mental health topics. Edward and I briefly talk about living with anxiety and depression, but we don't get too deeply into it. If you're extra sensitive to these kind of topics, I just want you to know that there is a mention of mental health in this episode. So, anyway, edward is going to share what worked for him while writing his debut novel, the Monsters in Our Shadows, and how he approaches the writing process, and you'll even hear about how his novel accidentally made it to Hollywood. I won't spoil that story for you. You will hear it later in the episode, and so much more. This is a jam-packed episode with Edward J Sembel and I'm so excited to share his story with you, so let's go ahead and dive right in. Hi, edward, welcome, and thank you so much for coming on the show.

Speaker 1: 3:12

Thank you, how are you?

Speaker 2: 3:14

I'm doing great. I'm so excited to have you here. I imagine we're going to have a very fun and in-depth and inspiring conversation, because your story is inspiring. I've seen you decide to write a book, go out and take the steps to make it happen, and now you're at the point where you're sharing it with the world, which we're going to talk about more throughout the episode. But first, if you don't mind, would you tell people a little bit about yourself, like who you are, where you live, what kind of books you write and things like that.

Speaker 1: 3:39

Yeah, absolutely, thank you. I live in Toronto with my lovely wife and big softy of a pup, juno. I write horror, speculative fiction, and this one so happens to land in the realm of dystopian.

Speaker 2: 3:51

Yes, and this is your first novel, correct?

Speaker 1: 3:54

Yeah, it's the first one, if we don't include the previous that I've buried.

Speaker 2: 3:59

Awesome, and so, speaking of that, I'm just going to give listeners a very quick highlight reel of the timeline, because people like hearing how long things took to do.

Speaker 1: 4:07

Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 4:08

All right. So in August of 2020 is when we first met, we started working together on a very different story similar realm in terms of genre and topics, but it was different and then, a few months into the process, we shelved that one. We could talk about that a little more in a second, and then, in kind of November, december 2020, we started what is Now the Monsters in Our Shadows, and then, by September of the next year, you were done with a draft and ready to move on to working with beta readers and other editors correct?

Speaker 1: 4:38

Yes, yeah.

Speaker 2: 4:39

And so then after that, in like March of 2022, you've come back to it after working with the beta readers and another editor, and then we kind of worked together to execute some of those recommended changes and get it ready to be in its final state. And then today, which is October 3rd, is your published date, which is very exciting. So congratulations.

Speaker 1: 4:59

Thank you very much.

Speaker 2: 5:00

And so take us back to, like, the very, very beginning. Where did the idea for this story come from?

Speaker 1: 5:07

Yeah, it's a personal story in so much as the ideas and the themes stemmed from my battle with muscular dystrophy, which I was diagnosed with 12 years ago, and the monsters are allegorical to the way that the disease feels, kind of on my back, the drawing near and hungrier, and I know that one day it will swallow me. So that's where that kind of came from, and maybe more so, the mental struggles with depression and anxiety and trying to find acceptance while you're still in a state of denial. Real, real late conversation, an important one, though.

Speaker 2: 5:45

Right, because, like you said, it's not just physical. It's about dealing with kind of. What does this mean for me? You know the depression comes up. I'm sure there's anxiety and your character deals with similar feelings.

Speaker 1: 5:56

Absolutely yeah, and this is almost me working through a lot of those things and seeing if I can get to the other side of it, just like the main character, anthem. Seeing how he got to the other side of his story was similar. So there's a lot of symbology around denial, anger, depression, the anxious need to hide away from the world, kind of where the walls came from, themes of othering. You know, a lot of these things were surprising as they came up and I was going through them and it really helped to sit down every day and work them out on the page in this genre.

Speaker 2: 6:28

And it's kind of cool because I remember something that was important to you is and we're kind of spoiling the end I'll read a synopsis of your book in a second but what was important to you was that it's not like everything's magically fixed for your character by the end, because in real life and in your personal story we know that's not going to be the case. Right, it's not a magic wand that can just come in and fix things.

Speaker 1: 6:49

Yeah, unfortunately not.

Speaker 2: 6:51

Yeah, so unfortunately not, and so you really wanted to show that in your character, which I think you've done. And, like he does a great job with the tools he has, he saves people. He's a hero in his own way, right, but he still deals with some of these demons and some of his struggles still by the end, which I think is very realistic and very cool.

Speaker 1: 7:08

Yeah, he's definitely not a shining knight and a typical hero by any means, but I don't think I could write that honestly.

Speaker 2: 7:15

Yeah, Let me go ahead and read the back cover copy, just so listeners can get a sense of kind of what we're talking about before we keep digging in. Is that okay? Beautiful, yeah. So here we go. Here's the back cover copy.

Speaker 2: 7:27

It's been a century since the Great Consumption. Humanity has been devoured to the edge of extinction by the ever-ravenous shivers, terrifying shapeless creatures that latch onto their hosts, tormenting them over time before consuming them all at once. The last of civilization lives in the crumbling city of Atlas, where they subsist on processed insects and await their inevitable fate. Anthem is the city exilist tasked with trapping the shivers and banishing them to the malevolent deadlands outside the city walls. But Anthem is ailing and destined to soon fall victim to his own shiver, a fate he's reluctantly accepted. As Anthem begins to withdraw from his world, a threat he's unprepared for comes hurtling home. If he is to save anyone, he will have to travel into the deadlands in search of a remedy to tame these creatures. But no Atlas dweller has ever made it back alive, and Anthem must confront his own darkness before humankind is forever lost to the monsters in our shadows.

Speaker 2: 8:20

So A amazing back cover copy, that's awesome. And then B. I can totally see what you were just talking about, even in this back cover copy. So the shivers represent multiple things. It's like the depression angle, the mental health struggles that a person and Anthem in this case is going through, and they also represent that physical symptom, right?

Speaker 1: 8:42

Right.

Speaker 2: 8:43

And so I don't want to spoil it too much. But you'll see in the opening pages that shivers kind of show up and haunt the person they're attached to until it's ultimately time to destroy the host that they're attached to.

Speaker 1: 8:56

Yeah. So it's kind of tied to the feeling of you know maybe just an early diagnosis or the beginning signs of depression or even grief, where you can kind of deny it and look away from it and it's back and hidden in the shadows and you can kind of get on with your day. But over time it gets harder to ignore as it gets more prevalent, more and more haunting, until it's you know you can't stop it and it has its way. Then there's also this interesting I don't want to say comfort, but familiarity with depression. Here too that grows more reliable for you.

Speaker 1: 9:28

And this isn't to say that the spectrum of depression is so narrow, but for everybody in the story, the way they deal with it is a failing to the people going through it. So that you'll see the you know different citizens looking away from people who may be afflicted with a shiver, which is what the monsters are called, and it's not really because they don't want to help the person next to them, but they don't really want to be reminded of the shivers or the monsters that may be in their own shadows. So you'll see that everybody has this mask of felicity that they're growing really too tired to maintain by the time we get to their start of the story, and that's a key feature.

Speaker 2: 10:06

Right, and so rewind to that initial spark of an idea. We were already working together on a different book, but if you kind of rewind three months before that, when did you know that you needed to get some help, or or what was that like when you were like I don't know what to do with this idea?

Speaker 1: 10:21

Yeah, that was a hell of a day. I remember when I brought that up I said, listen, savannah, I think it's time to put this one to bed and bury it and start again. And I remember you saying like no, no, no, don't do that. But after we talked a little bit it made sense. I mean I was 60, 70,000 words into the previous novel and I was kind of meandering through while I was writing, kind of aimless. Well, I mean, I had aim, just I wasn't hitting anything.

Speaker 1: 10:45

And at that point I was fairly well invested in education, kind of eating up and reading anything that I could to make me a stronger writer. I mean like masterclass. I'm a sucker for the elements of style by Strong and White on writing Stephen King, anything like that I was ravenous for. But I knew nothing would beat one-on-one support. So it was kind of a no-brainer when I came across here in the first place. But when I, when I got to this point where I thought this novel isn't really doing the things that I wanted to be doing with the previous novel and I wanted to really nail down the science of the structure, and I mean you are the master at that, and it was kind of the same time, when I learned to be more honest with the content and what I was going through felt like and I guess still feels like a literal monster in my shadow here. So once that kind of got into my head I couldn't put it away.

Speaker 2: 11:32

Yeah, and it was interesting because, like you said, you were pretty far into a draft and usually my advice will be like let's just stick with it, because you've come so far and writers tend to go through this dip anyway, where they're like I hate my story, everything sucks, and so I always try to be like no, everybody goes through this. But for you it was a little different, because it wasn't like I loved this idea and now I don't. You were kind of like I had this idea. I never really felt that like deeper connection to it, and now I've had this new idea that I really feel connected to and, like you said, you were able to dig deeper and really express kind of all that stuff that was on your heart and I think it really shows in the draft that you eventually came up with in the book that you're publishing today.

Speaker 1: 12:13

Yeah, so excited, and I think it does. Yeah, and for that last novel, what I was kind of doing, I think, is just learning the ropes and messing around, and when I got to the 60 or 70,000 word mark in that novel I thought you know, I'm ready for the real story, which was kind of always the monsters in our shadows. So I'm glad that we leapfrogged that one and got to this one.

Speaker 2: 12:33

Yeah, and that's kind of fun. You know, the first version of anything is usually just like a playground, so it was kind of in hindsight it's really good that you were able to say, like this isn't what I want, let's move on to something that feels more aligned. But as you think about kind of those early days, was there anything that either stood out as like an aha moment or a big hurdle for you in the writing? And I have something I remember. If you want me to lead that.

Speaker 1: 12:57

Do you?

Speaker 2: 12:57

Yeah, so I remember when we were outlining and you were kind of writing the first draft. You love sinking into the world building and writing description. Is that accurate to say?

Speaker 1: 13:07

Yeah, that is accurate.

Speaker 2: 13:09

Yeah, and so how was that hard for you to deal with when either like realizing, okay, savannah gave me a budget for word count per scene and I'm just blowing that out of the water, or balancing that with scene structure? Cause I'm asking? Cause I know a lot of listeners are also this way, where they love world building, they love putting in the details, so any anything kind of coming up about that.

Speaker 1: 13:29

Yeah, that's a great question.

Speaker 1: 13:31

I do remember that that was a big aha moment.

Speaker 1: 13:34

I remember kind of figuring out that with your quota I had 1500 or 3000, at one point words to play with to get this point across and there's only so much world building you can do with that, which kind of helps formulate the themes in a more concise manner, which I kind of just you know after working with you do naturally now, and I kind of quite this too In my other life I'm a musician and in the same way that music theory kind of enabled me to appreciate the complexities and layers of music, the learning scene structure and the methodology behind plotting and the story beats that we worked on, you know, the large, small scene structures really helped me see other stories for their components and it really helped me understand my own mess of ideas and organize them into a concise piece of work.

Speaker 1: 14:17

So each of these beats and each of these themes could be, you know, 1500, 2000 words, sometimes 500, you know, and I think, just as fiction writers, we create this entire world and it's vast and complex, and this big aha moment was learning that this structure helped me zoom in on the specific elements that helped me make up the story. So, yeah, that was definitely a big aha moment when I got into the theory of it and the structure with you. And, yeah, to circle back the quota for words per scene.

Speaker 2: 14:47

Yeah, and I remember it took us a while because in the beginning we were like, all right, we're just gonna, you're gonna, write the scenes, it's gonna come out, however many words is gonna come out, and then over time I would give feedback like we don't need these three paragraphs or whatever, and so eventually you kind of learn to hone in on what, like you said what was the most important, and by the end you were getting that really nice balance of world building and description versus actual movement in the scene, which is pretty cool. And then you know, through editing you were able to apply that to the front half of the book. What was your relationship to getting feedback in the beginning and like, do you feel differently about it now or do you feel the same? Talk to me about that.

Speaker 1: 15:21

Yeah, yeah, I mean, feedback is always unnerving and it's definitely a vulnerable thing. But every step of this is right and I mean I think Callis is best built slowly over time. So finding the right source for feedback is important, especially if you can control that, like in the first drafts. I did learn that by accident, luckily enough to work with you, but I was guarded when I started. I mean I didn't even tell anybody. I was writing for a handful of years but because I think I'm used to getting more feedback now, it's still a nerve wringer. But I think feedback is great because there's so much you can you can learn from it and use it as a tool and there's so much you can you can do with it.

Speaker 2: 15:58

What you're saying is interesting for a couple reasons. One, because you've already shared how like intimate this story is, or how much it is you on the page. We really had to have some of those hard conversations to get to the meat of who Anthem is, you know so it's like that it's. It's an important thing that we had to do, but it also makes getting feedback on what you're producing potentially harder, because it's so much of you you know.

Speaker 1: 16:20

Yeah, and I think I think that was necessary and I'm so glad we did that. I remember there's a few things that I was really guarded about and I didn't want to be that honest, right, I didn't want that much of myself bleeding out on the page. But yeah, I'm so glad, so glad we did that.

Speaker 2: 16:34

Yeah and then. So I remember we spent some time on your outline too. What is your opinion on outlining? Like, if you're thinking about writing your next book, are you going to outline and then kind of, how did outlining help you? Or or, if it's helpful to you, tell me about that in Monsters and I Shadows.

Speaker 1: 16:50

Yeah, I mean I know what it was like to write without an outline. First I was kind of lost circling the drain, and I was. I was writing it, I was figuring out the plot points, the obstacles and decisions on the fly. So kind of figuring things out as I was writing and that kind of just paved the way for a heavy second draft and almost a rewrite in one of my cases. So after working with an outline I can focus on the character in more detail, the feel of the space around them, the rhythm of their heart at the moment. So my first draft is closer to the final because of all that work.

Speaker 2: 17:23

Yeah, which is super exciting Because I think you know a lot of people. They assume kind of if I hit all those plot points and I just do like a day's worth of outlining, I can be done, and then that's not really much more efficient than just writing a first draft by the seat of your pants. But if you spend the time to really pressure test the outline like we did and think about you know, because the kind of the way that we work together is like you had all the creative ideas and then I say, okay, I'm the container person, so you have this idea, let's, let's shape it like this so that it becomes an engaging plot, and then you kind of would tell me, well, that doesn't work because of X or you know, Anthem would actually do this. So it's for people listening, like, even if you're worried about getting feedback, it is nice sometimes to have someone to kind of pitch and catch with, just because it's really hard for our own brains to focus on everything at once, you know.

Speaker 1: 18:10

Yeah, and on multiple occasions I remember us talking about or you saying to me you know what's the conflict here, how is he reacting to this, what's the dilemma, what's the decision? And we would flesh those out. And what's interesting is, in a lot of those cases I would know those answers but they wouldn't be on the page. So it was really helpful in structuring this and then being able to kind of carry the reader's emotion through.

Speaker 2: 18:32

Yeah, and to see a plot arc and a character arc unfold at the same time in a draft which a lot of people don't quite get to in the first draft, so that was really encouraging. But yeah, and so you wrote your first draft and then, like you said, you felt pretty good about the quality and so then I remember at one point we were kind of you had some life events, like you were getting married, which is so exciting.

Speaker 1: 18:51

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 18:51

You had just gotten a beautiful puppy so you had to, like, take care of her and all that. But we were kind of like, okay, we agree, it's time to step away from this, send it to other people. And you worked with beta readers and another editor, right?

Speaker 1: 19:04

Yes.

Speaker 2: 19:05

What was that process like?

Speaker 1: 19:07

Yeah, like the feedback, it was unnerving. I sent it out to beta readers and a big part of me really thought they'd come back and say we caught you, you're not a writer, please hand in your paper and pencil and you're done. But that wasn't the case, luckily. They actually really connected with it and the biggest moment there for me was when somebody said they cried at the end and forgave themselves for years of shame around their depression. And honestly, I mean that was the goal the whole time is to affect anybody. So that was the end, all be all. That's the dream.

Speaker 1: 19:38

But yeah, I mean, the reason I got beta readers in the first place was to get a multitude of diverse objective points of view on the work to see if there's something that I was missing. I'm too close to it at that point and I don't know what I don't know. So I just covering my bases, making sure that the work is as strong as it can be in the places that I might not be aware that I needed strengthening. But yeah, that was incredible and that allowed me to go back, edit a couple of things plot points that needed to be a little stronger and then send it to an editor, andrew Lowe. I worked with him to get the whole thing edited and we affirmed it up and that was basically the last draft and the end of it, or one of the last drafts.

Speaker 2: 20:18

And I want to highlight something fun that you said, because people asked me often like, okay, so I'm going to work with you and then we're going to create this draft and then I'm going to feel really good about it and I'm going to like make all my dreams come true, and I'm like, well, I mean, in theory, that would be great, right, but what you said is funny, because this is how it normally happens, is you finish a draft and then you're like I don't know, I think other people are going to read it and maybe it was just like me and Savannah that really liked it.

Speaker 1: 20:41

I mean, I'm still convinced that that's the case.

Speaker 2: 20:44

Yeah, and so people always have that feeling. It's really funny, like I'll always hold hands with the author and be like, okay, we're ready, let's send this out. And then they always tell me like in hindsight I wasn't sure. I thought maybe you just really liked it.

Speaker 1: 20:57

So it's really funny.

Speaker 2: 20:58

If anyone else is dealing with something similar. Just know it happens to a lot of people.

Speaker 1: 21:01

Yeah, every day when I wake up.

Speaker 2: 21:03

Yes, but what's cool is, I'm sure, that having gone through this whole process because I know there was some perfectionism stuff in the beginning too and you know whether that's just because you wanted to do a really great job or because it was kind of a vulnerable exercise to you know put yourself on the page like this how does that perfectionism feel now that you've gone through this process? Like I know it's still there right, but are you able to kind of work through it?

Speaker 1: 21:27

Yeah, that's a great question. It's funny because right now I'm working on a story with the theme of letting go. It's hard to know when to let go of something and I don't have the answer as to how. But I think if you love something in that moment, then that moment is the time to let it go. But yeah, I mean that said, letting go of something that you're holding on to, that that's, you know, this personal or maybe anything can feel like more often than not, prying your own fingers free. But how else do you grab on to something new?

Speaker 2: 21:59

Yeah, and I kind of like what you just said and we don't have to go too deep into this if you don't want, but it's almost like you needed to write the monsters in our shadows to deal with your feelings, like you said earlier, and now that you've kind of gone through that process, you've obviously grown as a person from the you know we're talking three plus years ago. At this point it's kind of like now that you've dealt with that more, you're ready to move on to something else. So it's like the story is a representation of that. I know it doesn't, you know, necessarily make it go away. What are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 1: 22:27

Yeah, I agree with that and I think you know, without being too pretentious, I think I do use writing like a light in the dark, you know, trying to find my way and work out my own. You know things that I am going through and I definitely think that writing the monsters allowed me to get to the other side of a few things, and you know to understand that. Well, I don't want to give away the end of the book, but when you get to the end of the book you'll see kind of where I landed for now. But, yeah, I definitely think you are. You're right for sure.

Speaker 2: 22:56

And it's kind of funny because, thinking of the book, it's like you dealt with a shiver that was a certain color and now you know that's like your feelings around having muscular dystrophy and now you're onto a shiver of a different color which is kind of I'm tackling perfectionism and letting things go.

Speaker 1: 23:10

Yeah, like that.

Speaker 2: 23:11

Like we said, I feel like I just keep like getting so excited that today is your published date, when this goes live, october 3rd, and you've indie published this book. What led you to that decision?

Speaker 1: 23:21

Oh my gosh, savannah, it's a crazy roller coaster that I cannot wait to get off of. It was okay. So I was going to self publish from the very beginning. I did all the research and I said, look, this is just going to be a better option for me. So I started that journey. I put my book up on NetGalley for early reviews, which was fantastic. I got a great cover designer, richard LeJean, and my editor, andrew Lowe, you, of course, for developmental edit and moral support.

Speaker 1: 23:49

And then, yeah, and then I got a call about I don't know it was a month before I was going to publish and it was from a producer in LA and he wanted to make it a movie and shop it out to some big directors. And I didn't really believe it. But I called my agent at the time for the RxD agency and I said, hey, what's what's going on here? And we got on a call and started that whole process. And then another producer found me on on NetGalley and they wanted to make it a movie. And then my agent was basically like listen, if there's this kind of interest, maybe you want to rethink self publishing and we take it to the big five.

Speaker 1: 24:24

And I was still convinced that only you and I are interested in the book. So, yeah, I mean, emboss your syndrome rearing and suckle your head. Yeah, we took it to submission and, as you know, it's kind of a lot of just waiting for people to read, waiting for them to get back to you. But a couple editors at the big five loved it and they got back to us and they took it up to acquisition and that was fantastic and super exciting. But in the acquisition meetings sales basically said there's no market for dystopian, despite its primary genre of horror.

Speaker 2: 24:56

Yeah, which we beg to differ on that.

Speaker 1: 24:58

I hope so. I hope so. I mean it was disappointing to see that the editors would love it and that it would fall apart in acquisition. So I took the book back and I went back to self publishing and got back on the horn and yeah.

Speaker 2: 25:09

So you've been on like a total whirlwind, which is so it's like funny in a way, but kind of not funny in the same breath, because like you wanted to start out indie publishing to avoid a lot of the stuff that happened, like the waiting and the loss of control and all that. But like who wouldn't try to go the traditional route if they could, right? I mean, a lot of us are on the fence.

Speaker 2: 25:30

So it's funny that, like A, I think it's the first time you told me this. I could almost have no words because I was like what I kept going? How did you go this long without telling me? And I remember being like just yeah, and so it was just. It's funny because that was your goal to indie publish. And now you've come all the way back around, which you know. I think it was meant to be, because that's what you wanted, but also the script part of it, the screenplay, is not quite off the table, right.

Speaker 1: 25:57

Yeah, the script is finished. It's been finished for a few months now. Co-wrote that with Tim Doran, with Wangle Films who is producing it, with James Van Der Ward yeah, so that is happening. We also have a wonderful director on board, april Mullen. So excited for her to bring this to life. And now that the writer strike is wrapped up, we're able to take it to market soon. So, yeah, the film is very much still on the table and it feels crazy and also great. And then, yeah, taking the book back and out of submission to be able to self publish it confidently like this with the right team feels really, really great. I'm excited.

Speaker 2: 26:31

Yeah, which is amazing. It's so funny because I'm sure there are people listening going like this guy just kind of landed into a dream scenario for a lot of people, which is that's how you feel, right. You're just like, yeah, these things, kind of the ball kept rolling downhill and all of these things happened. But yeah, it's funny that this is what so many people want, and I think we were talking about it earlier that you haven't quite felt all of this as reality yet.

Speaker 1: 26:53

Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, imposter syndrome is definitely at an all time high, that's for sure, you know, and that imposter syndrome kind of tells me that this stuff isn't really happening to my book. But I talked to my wife, who is absolutely incredible and I definitely couldn't have done this without her. Shout out to Leah and does. She helps take up the fight against imposter syndrome and reminds me that I'm a writer. You know she's like you're writing, so you're a writer and yeah, maybe all that'll sink in one day, I don't know, yeah, and it's.

Speaker 2: 27:21

I mean, honestly, the story is really important. If we kind of look under this dystopian stuff and we look under the surface of things, it's a really important story and I know that, like you and I have talked about, we've both experienced depression and anxiety at different points in our life and you know, just some of the messages in the story are really needed and we need to talk about this stuff more. But, yeah, it's, it's funny because I'm thinking back to the day that we talked and you told me all this about the screenplay and the publishers and the agent and in my head I'm like gosh, he sounds like this is happening to somebody else because, like he's excited but he's also kind of hesitant, like this can't be real.

Speaker 1: 27:58

Yeah, that's exactly how it feels. I mean, we're still at the base of the mountain here, so you know I don't want to get too, too excited, but it does feel like someone's going to knock on my door with a clipboard and take away my license to write. I mean, neil Gaiman said that and if he feels like that, I mean that reassures me that it's okay to feel the same.

Speaker 2: 28:15

The cool thing is is you're letting it come into your life. You know you're not opposed to it happening. You're not thwarting any of these efforts. You're kind of being brave and just saying, okay, well, we'll see what happens. It's uncomfortable, but it's like uncomfortable in a good way, right.

Speaker 1: 28:29

Yeah, no for sure.

Speaker 2: 28:31

And so I have a question. So what would you say? Because there's, I mean, you know, we're all just average people, right, and we all want to write books, and we all want to do great things, that we would love to all accidentally fall into situations like yours. So what would you say to someone who's like? That could never happen to me. I'm just an average Joe or average Jane. I'm just writing this little book. Like you felt that way too right.

Speaker 1: 28:52

Yeah, I mean it seems outlandish that my advice would be worth a damn. I'll quote a hodgepodge of advice that has helped me from others. I think first and foremost is that no one's heard your story and we need to hear your story because nobody can tell your story like you. And I mean it sounds simple, but just write one word after another until you're done.

Speaker 2: 29:13

Yeah, and I think something else to highlight that you did too, that helped this scenario is you knew what you wanted, you were clear on that, you got help when you knew that you needed help, because there's a lot of people that are afraid of, you know, even joining an online writing course or reaching out to a critique partner or whatever that step looks like and kind of just being open to saying, okay, I know that I don't know everything, and if I want to get better, I have to live in that discomfort of figuring out what I don't know to get to the point I want to get to and then not giving up. So you had kind of that trifecta of all of it, like I'm saying it now and I'm like gosh, all that sounds so uncomfortable, but it's kind of like you have to do that to get to the result you want.

Speaker 1: 29:52

I really think you do. Yeah, don't give up and just do whatever you're doing with enough assurance and confidence. Do it honestly, the best you can, and then let it go and move on to the next thing.

Speaker 2: 30:02

And so the book's out today. How do you feel about like the next thing on the horizon, are you writing another?

Speaker 1: 30:08

book. I am yeah.

Speaker 2: 30:09

Okay, good, and how was that process just compared to the monsters in our shadows? Like, was it easier? Was it harder in certain ways and easier in others?

Speaker 1: 30:17

All right, you've seen the outline for the new one. You know the whole story but, yeah, I mean there's a new base level of confidence in knowing that I can finish it, which helps me get started. But I think, you know, sitting down and exploring the world and the characters on the page is still the same. But because of all the work we've done, I have these new tools in my toolbox to help me execute the plot and bring the ideas to life, Kind of just everything that helps make the story more honest and more captivating and engaging. I mean, I've totally fallen in love with the whole process.

Speaker 2: 30:46

Yeah, and so I have seen your outline and it's fun for me as a book coach and editor because I love seeing someone's second try at something and I'm like, okay, he's not doing a lot of those rookie things that he did in the first outline, which shows me like in my mind, I'm like he's totally going to be okay. You know, he's got that groundwork. Every new book is a new challenge, for whatever reason. It could be the character that gives you a hard time, the world, the plot, whatever. But at least when you have those tools you know that you will be able to figure it out and I feel pretty good about your ability to do that. Not that you need me to say that, but you know it was very cool to see the growth in just from one book to another book, very cool.

Speaker 2: 31:27

It's exciting, yeah. So okay, well, any last minute thoughts on your mind that you want to share with the writers out there.

Speaker 1: 31:34

I would say just keep writing, put your best word after the next one, after the next one, and finish it. We need to hear your story. The world will be richer for it.

Speaker 2: 31:44

Yes, great, great parting words. Okay well, it's been so fun to sit down and talk with you about your writing journey. I know that this conversation is going to inspire so many other people to take action and get their books written, so, truly, thank you for sharing everything that you shared today. I think you're a great example of what's possible and, yeah, I just know you're going to be so inspiring to so many people. So, again, thank you for being here.

Speaker 1: 32:08

Yeah, honestly, Savannah, thank you so much for having me on. This was a lot of fun and thank you for listening.

Speaker 2: 32:13

And I know that people are going to want to learn more about Anthem Story and the monsters in our shadows and you. So where can people go to follow along on your journey or learn more about you?

Speaker 1: 32:23

Thank you. Yeah, right, you can order it wherever books are sold Amazon, indigo, barnes and Noble Waterstones. Ask your local bookstores for it. That would be great. Little Ghost Books. I'm having a signing on October 15th. If you want to stop by and say hello, you can follow me on Instagram EdwardJSemble and yeah we'll put all those links to Edward's stuff in the show notes.

Speaker 2: 32:45

And again, edward, thank you so much for coming and spending your time with me, and I can't wait to see what's in store for Book Two, because I am in love with the outline already. So good luck in all your endeavors and please keep me posted on that screenplay, and we'll have to have you back for Book Two.

Speaker 1: 32:59

Thank you so much. Truly, this was great.

Speaker 2: 33:02

So that's it for today's episode. As always, thank you so much for tuning in and for showing your support. If you want to check out any of the links I mentioned in this episode, you can find them in the show notes listed in the description of each episode inside your podcast player or at savannahgilbocom forward slash podcast. If you're an Apple user, I'd really appreciate it if you took a few seconds to leave a rating and a review. Your ratings and reviews tell Apple that this is a podcast that's worth listening to and, in turn, your reviews will help this podcast get in front of more fiction writers just like you. And while you're there, go ahead and hit that follow button, because there's going to be another brand new episode next week, full of actionable tips, tools and strategies to help you become a better writer. So I'll see you next week and until then, happy writing.